Episode 03 - Starting To Connect

Do you feel lonely in early sobriety? Do you feel like you've lost your ability to connect with other's, yourself and the world around you? We discuss what it means to connect in early recovery and how to start developing meaningful relationships moving forward.
Show Notes From The Hosts:
In today's episode, Taylor and Eric discuss what it means to connect in early sobriety.
Guys talk about their weeks. Being of service is important in both Eric and Taylor's sobriety.
Both Eric and Taylor make amends of some information they discussed in the last episode.
Introduce topic of connection
How we fight against connection. Eric talks about infliction drama in life. Taylor references Grandma's Boy.
Connection is the key. We are learning how to connect.
Basic definition of connection
Connection is a built-in process in Recovery.
Different levels of connection: surface vs. meaningful connection.
Our problems in connection are really a part of our attraction to alcohol.  Levels of addiction corelate with our levels of connection that we want. Alcohol became our social lubricant to connection.
We are trying to be authentic in Recovery.
Taylor references a book  (show notes) about becoming aware of our thoughts.
Authenticity and honesty is a precursor to meaningful connection.
Types of connections: We have many different connections in our daily lives
How does connection apply to our recovery? The shift that happens when we buy into our sobriety.
Eric describes Rat Park and the Vietnam War: Johann Hari-Opposite of Addiction is Connection-We approach Recovery wrong in our therapeutic world
Using the science to show the importance of connection
Next episode tease to having a guest

Host's and Show Social Media
sobershameless@gmail.com
IG: @sobernshameless
Tiktok @sobernshameless
buymeacoffee.com
klingercrafted
ericandrewcoaching12@gmail.com
IG: @e_acoach
Tiktok @ericandrewcoaching
FB: Eric Andrew Coaching
Eric's website:ericandrewcoaching.com

Episode Links:
merriam-webster.com
https://www.amazon.com/Grandmas-Boy
Dinosaur Therapy link: https://www.goodreads.com
Intervention link: https://www.netflix.com/title/70148130
Link to Johann Hari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY9DcIMGxMs
https://www.amazon.com/Letting-Go-David-R-Hawkins-ebook
Laura McKowen, Author, Podcaster and Founder of the Luckiest Cl

Chapters

• 0:00 INTRO
• 13:04 Self Sabotage
• 21:48 Connection Defined
• 50:13 Rat Park
• 1:00:44 OUTRO

Transcript

Sober & Shameless EP 03:
Speaker:
Hey everybody. Welcome to Sober and Shameless. Woo-hoo. A podcast that flips the script on what it means to live a sober life. In each episode of Sober and Shameless, the host, along with the occasional guests, will pick a topic to shed their shame about, explore ideas on how to grove through those challenges, and provide organic, lighthearted, honest, and unprofessional commentary about their experiences with addiction, strength through recovery and life and sobriety.

What's going on, buddy? I'm doing pretty well. I'm doing pretty well. We're getting close to the holidays. What are we, two weeks away from Christmas. Crazy. At the time of this recording? Yes. I think we are two weeks away from Christmas. Do you got any big holiday plans going on? Uh, I have a few. It's, it is, uh, for me it's the, because we're off, I'm a teacher, so we're off, um, for a week and I'm just trying to kind of fill the day and I have like these little things going on.

I just started, uh, this past week. Uh, we have a, it's called the a mi We have a mission that's not far from where I live and I, I've been wanting to start, um, volunteering for them and I just had an opportunity this past Wednesday to help serve, uh, food for dinner and it was a great experience. So I'm gonna be doing that over the holiday and it's gonna be a pretty good week off.

I'm excited. That's awesome, man. Do you do a lot of, uh, charity work, uh, regularly, like around the holidays and stuff? I just started with this group, but this is gonna be a consistent gig, so to speak, and I'm excited about it. I'm trying to pick maybe one day a week. Uh, at least one day a week to try to try to do that.

Uh, I just think it's a good, it's a good way to give back and it's a great, it's a great, uh, mission. It works with men who are addicted and on the streets and it brings them in and uses, uh, a kind of a Christian based system to help them get sober, and it is pretty success. They do a lot of different things.

I was supposed to run a 5K back in October. Uh, we have a sister group down in, down along the shore and they, it was a 5K for them. I had signed up and then I hurt my leg, so I wasn't able to run, but I went down and supported them. And then, uh, so this is really my first day, that Wednesday in the trenches.

And, uh, it was very cool and it was very fulfilling. Uh, I actually met, it was very interesting. I met a woman there who had brought her son and she w had five years sobriety. And we ended up kind of talking about where we were at in our own journey. So it was pretty, kind of, kind of cool to meet people that are given back, you know, and that's what it's all about, right?

Yeah, man. That's awesome actually. And I mean, do you mind me asking what is the, what, what's the group or can you not say? Well, it's, the name of a town is, it's just called the Morristown Mission. And it's just, that's kind of how it's known. And they do, uh, and then they have a sister group in Asbury Park, New Jersey, and then I believe there's another group somewhere else.

I'm not quite sure where it is, but they, uh, they really reach out. They're pretty well known. They've been around for a while. So it's not just a local. Folks, although probably I would say the majority of them are local people know about them and, and they get recommendations and referrals, you know, from people that they think that's a, that would be a good program for p for folks.

So it's a, and I believe it's something like if you go through the whole program somewhere, like an eight month to a year program, because they have three tiers and you kind of graduate from each tier. But before you can even get into the first tier, you have to spend, I think it's like a month or so clean and, and, and around and not in and out.

And then they kind of graduate you into the, the first tier. And they have different things that you're learning on each tier. And by the time you get to the last tier, you kind of live in just with a roommate and you do work outside in the community. You help to, uh, run local AA meetings, those kind of things.

And then you kind of graduate from the system and they do it as a graduation, kind of like a graduation from high school type of thing. It's almost the same idea. And, and the guys look forward to it, you know, it's the, it's a big, it's a big step Right. You know, when you get to that place. Yeah. It reminds me kind of like a halfway house.

Uh, yeah. But with religious teaching undertone to it. That's cool. And also a great program. Uh, there's, like I said before, so many different ways to get sober and it's awesome to just be open to exploring all of them. And I think that's, Amazing that you're doing that type of charity work. I've done some stuff over the past years trying to, uh, give back in the world of recovery as well.

It's just, it means so much and for me, my program was freely given to me and to be able to pay it forward and more or less, uh, make sure other people have opportunities like I was so freely provide. That's awesome. Oh, no, I agree. And, and I, you know, my belief always with recovery is whenever you are in the presence of another alcoholic or whatever you wanna call anybody just in addiction, and you're there to be supportive of them or help them, then you're giving back.

So I, I think, um, that's the beauty of, in my mind, that's the beauty of the program or programs that I've been a part of, is the giving back part. You know, being there for another drunk, you know, be or being there for another addicted per soul and reaching out and reaching your handout. Which kind of, well, I wanna ask you before we go further, how is your week?

How's thing, how are things on your end? Thanks, man. I, well, I'm just trying to think here. It's always been busy for me and ever since, uh, I got into year three of recovery, It. I don't think it can get better or go in more positive direction. And then it keeps doing that. And it's weird. Not everything is great all the time, but for example, this last week, when I think back on my week, I'm constantly doing something now and it's so weird to be a doer and somebody who actually like accomplishes tasks as opposed to just having ideas, but only sitting, only making it to the bar  while I have those ideas and then all my ideas get told to the bottom of a bottle and then never achieved.

Well, you know, I think this last week I did some things in the wood shop for my startup small business, and then I also. Did my main job and then my second job. So between the three jobs, which I know you know about, but for the sake of our listeners, um, you know, I work three jobs while I try to support my wife financially while she goes to full-time nursing school, which is such a challenge and so much time, dedication, and effort goes towards that.

So the ability to be able to provide that and have the clarity without any resentments on it, I'm really actually getting a taste of what it's like to find harmony in life instead of balance, which to me means that it's not a one for one scale, it is more like a song. And finding harmony in life doesn't always mean that it's one side balance over another side balance or finding equality in both.

It is all about resonating with each other wherever you are. So while I find these resonance. I more or less had a good week, is what I'm getting at. I guess. I don't know, way to have an over deep thinking, thought on a simple question. Tey, Jesus Christ, you're such an alcoholic dude. Yeah. Well, and speaking of which, I do have to say though that I need to make a quick amends to you, sir, as well as the listeners to start my week, got off the podcast recording with you and went to sleep.

Didn't even think about it, but woke up the next day when I was doing the edits on the podcast and realized that there was something that I said towards the end of our podcast. Last episode, episode number two, I had made comments and talked about the idea. When we reflect on our day and review what was said and done, that it's our responsibility to go and make amends for those things, but also not think too much or too deep into it because then we don't become useful for ourselves.

There's other people. Now you had asked me, Hey, did you have that thought your. And I think I had said something to the effect of, uh, it was a mental throw up. It's what I say if I don't really know exactly what to say, and plus I, I wasn't even thinking about it anymore. The point I'm getting at is that I actually got that from a different tool that I've received in recovery.

But with that, I just need to let everybody know that, you know, I'm, uh, that there are gonna be times where we say things that are not necessarily from ourselves, nine times outta 10. Everything that I regurgitate in the world of recovery has probably come from another source or has been freely given to me as advice or unsolicited advice, depending on who was talking about.

What should be done or some suggestions on things to do. And I'm gonna do my best to make sure that I reference the appropriate things as they come up for this case. For instance, actually came from the, what they call the big book An Alcoholics Anonymous. And it's a specific section that talks about everything that I had discussed earlier, but I didn't mean to make it sound or seem like that was my idea.

And I know you know, we're gonna make mistakes on this show. And I think what's more important is once we do make mistakes, just coming on and owning up to them and doing a quick re amends, because Mike program has taught me that you need to be shameless about it and take responsibility when these type of things occur.

As long as we're coming from a place of auth authenticity, then I hope. My hope is that people will understand, um, when we make a comment that is not well received or when we reference something and we don't hit the mark on it, that they know we'll probably come back on later, take responsibility for it and just say, Hey, look guys, at the end of the day, we're trying our best here and we're not gonna be profesh, uh, 100% perfect about it, but we're gonna take responsibility for it, uh, as we can.

Woo. Got it. So, uh, thank you for that. Amends. I appreciate that, and I'm sure our listeners do as well, and I sort of have a bit of an amends as well. Okay. I, I don't know if I'd categor category it that way, but, uh, I, I just wanted to say to listeners, when I bring up somebody's name in recovery, especially if it's somebody who's done some work in recovery, I wanna make sure that, uh, I'm not flipping about it and I, and I, you know, give them their due.

So I brought, I had brought up Laura Macallan last week and, and I made the comment of like, she writes books and I listened to that again when we were, uh, kind of looking or listening to the edited version of, of, of episode two. And I felt bad about that because she's a good writer and. It should be more than she just writes books.

So I just wanted to say, Laura Macallan has written two of her first book that kind of really opened the door for her, was called, uh, we Are the Luckiest. And then she just wrote another book that is actually coming out in 2023. It's called You Could Push Off From Here, which is something that she had said in the first book and then she kind of elaborates on what that really means, uh, moving forward in, in the eyes of recovery.

So there you have it folks. We made our amends and we will definitely do that cuz listen, we are unprofessional. So  things are gonna happen, right? Definitely. And I, I appreciate it. Thank you for coming clean about that. And I think that as long as we're being open and honest about this stuff, uh, and come from an authentic place, then.

Our hope is people will understand that and we can move forward with having our actual discussions on what we're here to talk about. And I don't know. Hey Eric, did you pick a topic for this week? You mean what? Can we, can we go into the topic? Is that what we're gonna do? I think, I think insert like happy music right here as a transitioner point, like,

and then we see flowers in the rainbows and unicorns and everybody's happy. Wait rainbows, butterflies, and ugly cries. All of that, because all that is a part of. All that is a part of it. And the beauty of it all is you get to feel it now, get to feel it with those feelings. Oh fuck yeah, I know. I have feelings now, dude.

I swear to God, man. Like if I ever would've thought, uh, one day I was going to be the person I am now, I would be so confused about how it happened. Oh my God. Well, it's funny you say that because I the same way, I mean, I, I find myself  saying stuff like, oh, I isn't that cute. And boy, that was such, it was so pretty to see the snow on the trees.

And I'm like, who is this  that's talking like this? Hey, at least still who are you, dude? At least we still have our sixth senses of humors though. So like there is that. But honestly, at the end of the day, like I'm just talking about the perspective of that Taylor looking at me, the Taylor I am now. Hey, I'm completely happy with all of it and I'm so much better off with all the drama.

Not being self-inflicted in forefront of my brain going on constantly. Oh, well listen, I like to inflict drama. I still, I'm not over that part yet. Not, and a lot of times it's not on purpose. , it's not on purpose, but it's, it's almost my go-to, you know, I'm still working on stopping that being my go-to. So it's not, or, or, or landing in, maybe I should put it this way, or landing in drama that I didn't have to land in.

And somehow I got there. I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? Have you ever seen Grandma's boy? No, I did not. Oh man. Well, everyone almost probably knows the reference I'm about to make here. But anyways, there's this scene where they go into a vegan restaurant and they sit down to order food. And the reason why they're there is because the boss of the company that they all work for has said, go out to dinner.

It's on us. Well, he is a very, a very vegan personality type himself, and so that's more or less what he was wanting for them as they went. Well, obviously a lot of the employees, that's not their jam, so when they get there, I think David Spade plays the waiter that comes over and says, hi everybody, my name's Shiloh.

Welcome to our place. We have a lot of great options here. And one of the guys says, do you guys have any burgers or any, anything like that? He's like, no, you're gonna love it. There's no grease or fat. He's like, well, if I pay you extra, could I get grease or fat added to it? And I don't know why it made me think of it, but when you were just like, no, I still do a lot of self-inflicting chaos.

It made me reference that scene right there for some reason and just be like, well, can I get extra grease and can I get some side of chaos, please? My life's a little bit too boring right now. I think that is something that is serious in the world of recovery of like, once things get good, the first thing we decide to do is sabotage the fuck out of it and just say, um, no, this is too good for me right now.

I think I'm enjoying myself a little too much. I need, oh yeah, get outta here. I think I have to continually prove to myself that I have the capability of fucking it up. It's like self sabotage, right? Yeah. And like, oh, there he is. There's that guy. Where have you been? Do you think We do it in like, in the world of like connecting with people, sabotaging relationships, right?

Like in that desire, when we're starting to get sober as we're trying to connect and as we're trying to grow that we almost immediately start trying to justify ways to get back, to get out of and to revert, uh, you know, whether we want to or not. It's this like innate desire to do that, I guess. I think that that's very true.

I do believe that as we go into these different relationships and connections that are new in sobriety for us, you know, new in, Hey, I'm sober and I'm trying to do this, I think that it's almost like a reset, right? A reset back to that place. And there's no reason for that. It's almost okay, I need to protect myself.

So, oh shit, all right, lemme go back to here. And, but what I know for me, what, what the beauty of it is, is it, and then we were talking about it earlier with you, is that knowledge that I'm doing this shit and that, okay, I, I don't want to do this shit anymore. I need to fix this. I need to change the narrative Here.

I, I have had another opportunity to change the narrative and, and that is working really, really well to the place where I'm going, oh, you know, this, speaking my mind and, and saying what I want in things and all of that stuff. That's a pretty cool place to be. Prior to that, I shut my mouth and let everybody else do everything, and then it would crash and burn.

So, Um, because I wasn't, inevitably I wasn't happy, so somehow I had to mess it up. But I think connection is the key. Yeah. To helping connection. Well, in helping, well first off, learning how to have healthy connections right. With people. That was really hard in the beginning for me because I didn't Wow.

Know how to do that, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so, you know what I mean? Like when people wanted to connect, uh, especially like, I remember the early days of being, uh, online with, with people in, in recovery and making a commoner statement and having people like, get on that and, and start talking to me and like, whoa, these people are talking to me.

And I kind of just laid out something pretty shitty and they're still talking to me. What's going on here? . It's so funny how like, terminally unique. We think we. Yes. Like I think that's one of the phrases you start to hear at the very beginning is terminal uniqueness. You walk into the room and you say, these people can't relate to me.

They don't know what I've been through. I'm the only one that's been through this. And even if you know that you're not the only one that's been through it, your ego tells you that your story is different and that right. No one is going to be able to help you with this. The ironic thing in that statement is why would you want to be alone in those scenarios?

But I can't explain why, nor is it my job to, that's the reality of what happened to me. My ego told me, these people won't know what's going on. These people won't be able to relate. You know, I am different. And that is the strangest desire of the self one could ever have because it's working against. You  it well, right?

It's almost like a fucked up badge of honor.  like, like right It, it's like, yes. It's like I can be alone cuz nobody's gonna understand me. I like being different and weird. Just let me be different and weird and all alone, so then I can complain the rest of my life, dude. Oh, actually I was looking at this earlier.

Oh man. Let me see if I can find it real quick without missing a beat here. Uh, it's a dinosaur talking to the universe. In this comic book that I have, it's called Dinosaur Therapy, uh, Sunday Times Bestseller. I'll add it in the show notes. Definitely. It's just funny. Four frame comics and this one is just, uh, one dinosaur just talking to himself.

He says, I'm ready for anything life has to throw at me. Well, not pain conflict out or minor discomfort, but anything else bring it on, . Exactly. It's exactly, it's like I, I wanna be able to connect, I wanna be able to do these things, except I don't want any of it at all whatsoever. . Right, right. Exactly. Well, that's what I was just gonna say.

All those four things are our connection. Yeah. When we connect with people, we have to feel pain, we have to feel sorrow. We ha it's part of it. It's just part of, and that doesn't mean it's gonna be awful and horrible. It just means that we need to be willing to face it and, and need to realize that there's two people or whatever involved.

Hey Eric. Uh, can I just get my connection with a side of Netflix and chill by myself and nobody to talk to? That would be great. Okay. If I could just like achieve that and feel the way I feel when I connect with people, but not talk to anybody. Ed, that would be great. Can I get that to go? Um, yeah, but uh, the extras not having them on, we're actually gonna, uh, uh, have to charge you extra for that.

Ah, shit. Because normally that comes right on there. I mean, that's the way the chef makes Is it like guacamole at Cudo or something? I just, you gotta Yeah. Extra charge. Well, shit. Yeah. And they make it, they prep me. It's because it's healthy, isn't it? That's actually, in this case, you're paying more for the unhealthy.

That's ironic. Yeah. Right, right. But we did what we talking about, and we do somehow we, we've, but I gotta admit, we have tied this into our topic and our topic today, folks, if you haven't figured it out, it's connection. Folks. There's a lot of ways to kind of talk about connections. So I have a couple of like basic definitions here of what I found about connection.

And I always love the way dictionaries do this. I'm like, well, how did that define anything? But they start out by going the, it's the act of connecting or the state of being connected. Now. Those are the first two things that Webster starts with. Wow, I wish I could get paid to do that. Uh, what's stupidity?

Well, it's the act of being stupid. Right. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You win. Wow, that was so deep. I could hardly see you down there, . Well then, now there's a lot of different definition of connection. Remember, we're gonna try to focus this just on, um, addiction and, and recovery and things like that, but there's a casual, logical relation or sequence.

So, you know, when you think about groupings, that kind of thing. Um, contextual relation or association. Um, so again, think of aa people that go to aa. You've got that group, right? Yes. That connecting group, that idea like-minded. I like the like-minded aspect of it. Yes. Because then it doesn't have to refer to any specific program.

I can just, the, the, why are we here? What's the commonalities here? What's the connection that binds us? Right. Like, right. You know, I, I'm here to connect. Uh, well, we don't have anything relatable. Well, who are you hanging out with? No one. Who are you hanging out with? No one. Okay. So we're both lonely. Let's start there.

Right, right. E Exactly. And the beauty of, of, you know, the, I think the recovery world is, it's a built in thing that we all have a relation together that we're, we're, uh, we have this in common, this commonality that hey, we're all, you know, trying to get better. We're all trying to get sober. And, you know, we tell our stories and we find a commonality in that whole place.

Yeah. And that, that is connection. You know, that's how we, we get there, we find a commonality and we connect on that level. Um, do you think that there's varying levels of connection? Like, you know, like level one is, hi, how are you? I'm good. Oh, wow. Me too. That's level one. Level two is like, hi, how are you?

Oh, I'm good. Me too. My kid has soccer practice tonight. Oh. My kid has soccer practice tonight too. So it's like, you know, like, is that connecting? But then also building relationships and building depth and quality. So it's like not a matter of like connecting on a surface level, but it's, it's deeper than that.

Like you have to go arguably maybe three layers deep before you really true to connect to somebody like and I, and I'm just kind of spitballing this here, but I have Well, that's a great point. Surface connection compared to. I guess meaningful connection, valuable connection, like Oh, oh yeah. Absolutely. I, you're right on the money.

I totally agree with you because think about it, you know, well, I mean, let's use this vehicle cuz it's kind of works a little bit. The, so think about you're 14 years old. And you are trying to connect, you wanna fit into groups, you want to, you know, you're trying to find that group that makes sense to you.

And, and that is like common age in our, in our journeys and our stories. Yeah. And there may be some social anxiety involved. Yeah. Yep. There may be some social anxiety involved and all those kind of things. And all of a sudden you try the juice and uh, uh, for those of you playing at home, the juice is alcohol.

Uh, try, well, it could be honestly anything com you know, whatever, whatever your addiction is, it can, for us, it was that. But yeah, for anybody else, you can actually, ironically, I think the juice might be what steroid users for do that. . Well, that's true. That's true. That's okay. That's a good point. That's true.

Happy Juice. So, all right. Alcohol. Alcohol. We're talking about Happy Juice alcohol. All right. But a lot of, you'll hear a lot, I being one of them, that it, like all of a sudden things loosened up. All of a sudden I could talk to people and all of a sudden I could try to. Yeah, I could fit in with people and, and that was so cool, you know, that I finally found that, that plane of existence with, with those people and we're like, oh, well I don't wanna get this up.

You know, this, this is how I get there. I, I like that. And, and, and for a while it works. And I always love the, the little saying it works until it doesn't. Yeah. Well, at, at 14 and 15 it kind of worked, you know, and, uh, and so we, but again, it was all about connecting. We were trying to connect and we used that.

And, and then so fast forward, right? We get in our college days and, and, uh, our, our twenties, that social lubricant has ramped up. And now it's not just, Hey, I'm gonna have a drink so I can talk to people. It's gonna be, I'm gonna have several drinks before I even go out, and I'm gonna have even more when I'm out because I like the feeling.

And, and then we are starting to chase a feeling that doesn't exist anymore. And then it become, then what happens? What, and I'm kind of putting our lives in this really crazy box, but. We then get to that place where, what do we start doing? We started drinking at 14 cuz we wanted to connect and by the time we're in our twenties or thirties or forties or wherever it happens for each of us, we're actually isolated drinking.

We're not even with anybody anymore. So we've gone like full gamut. And now here we are in, in, in that, that moment of recovery where people are saying, well, okay, we need to connect. And they're like, whoa, wait, I'm giving up the thing that helped me connect. How am I supposed to connect now? You know? And so when you talked about layers, the layers, you know, when we get rid of the alcohol, that's when the connection can be on real deeper levels.

And then how do you go back to age 14 Taylor and say, okay, connect. Well now wait a minute. The every attempt I made at connecting with the world around me without my, the, the gloves of my parents. Cuz I kind of feel like 14 is an age. Where you are starting to get a little bit of independence. You're just starting high school and you are being equipped with more responsibilities, and now you are taking everything that you learned in those 14 years, whether it be a good childhood or a messed up childhood or whatever it is.

We all started somewhere, right? Not everything was rainbows and butterflies, as we've stated many a times. But regardless of all of that, regardless of what caveated you into getting started, the starting of it then became your default mechanism, your roadway, to getting from point A to point B. And point B is connection, uh, in the sake of this discussion that we're having today, that road doesn't exist when you take out the propulsion system.

Like it, it doesn't, like you don't move anywhere. You don't go anywhere because you just, you literally took out the whole thing that got you from point A to point B, and now what do you do? And it's unlearning. It's unlearning, right? All of this. And then you are left with a beautiful thing. Who the fuck am I and how do I communicate in the world?

And that I would argue, is one of the most scariest things that keep people right at the cusp of sobriety because the fear and anxiety that rids the body when you have the thoughts, whether they're sober or not, probably not. Definitely at the beginning of, if I do this, then I am nothing. And I am not me.

And that scared the living shit outta me. I couldn't continue, but I couldn't stop either. I had no idea. And I was stuck between a rock and a hard place of my existence in this. In this universe. And I think the crazy thing about connection is the willingness to start. I feel like the universe will start to help us in that way, but we have to be willing and open to receive it.

And connection, yes, is a two-way street. You can't just want connection, but stay inside your house. You can't just desire something different but want to change Nothing at all. You can't have one or the other. It's, it's either you are or you aren't. And that is very tough because when you're in the middle space, that is arguably what I considered the most challenging part, or the end was the most challenging part of this entire jumping off point of getting started.

There were many other challenges after that, but that was, woo man. That was an epitome of terror. In my existence. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you used alcohol was that tool that got you in the door. And um, you know, I think the biggest part of all of this now is, is the idea of being authentic. You know, being able to just be who you are and not try to, you know, remember, go back to that 14 year old kid, that 14 year old kid wanted to fit into a group.

So if he or she could talk the big game in the group they wanted to be in, if they could find a way that they could be equal on a plane with those people, then they felt like that they were in and they weren't getting there in an authentic way. They were getting there through, you know, the goggles of alcohol through just loosening up and saying whatever came on in their mind, and they weren't afraid anymore.

Now you gotta do it without that. Right. And the challenges that that brings up. I love what you just had to say. Um, I was actually reading this literally earlier today, so if you don't mind, I'm just gonna, uh, uh, bring it up real quick. No, go ahead. Um, but you said who you really are. I feel like one of the fundamental problems with this contemplation that's occurring, especially before sobriety even happens is who are we?

That is the scare, that is the question that we don't have the tools to answer. And one thing that I found so profound, um, and it wasn't until, uh, uh, uh, couple years into my recovery journey, it was in the book of, uh, letting Go, the Pathway of Surrender by David R. Hawkins, md, uh, PhD and I started reading this book for growth.

It says, thoughts are like goldfish in a bowl, the real self. Is like the water. The real self is space between the thoughts or more. Exactly the field of silent awareness underneath all thoughts. That is where I reside, and it's weird to say I, because I is synonymous with ego for me, but in a sense of the discussion of who am I when I do not drink?

Who am I going to be without this buffer in the world around me? There's empty space and the allowing of empty space and the allowing of thoughts that exist inside of our bowl, and they ping on around and they swim around and they are aimless and they are infinite. And in a weird way, thoughts are thoughtless.

They. Happen and flow and then go, and I am still left behind to deal with them as they flow and go, and I am more or less this like, Outside being, viewing these thoughts going, that was fucked up. What the hell was that? Where did that come from? It's like anxiety, right before you go to sleep or anything like that, you, that's why I really feel that like we're not necessarily connected to those things.

Inadvertently, they occur just like other things occur in the world, and then I can decide whether or not how much impact it's gonna have over me. Like I can't decide if it's gonna rain tomorrow or not. Just like, I can't necessarily decide what thoughts I'm gonna have inside my head. The difference is I know I can't make the rain stop and I'm okay with that and I learn to accept those things.

Why can't I do the same thing with the thoughts inside of my head, except them for how they are and who they are in a sense, and don't necessarily take responsibility for them, but put on a fucking raincoat you. Well, that's fine. I listen first off, I love that reading. That was great. And, and you know, I would just, uh, a thought that came to my mind in all of that and makes a lot of sense to me.

Uh, and I don't want to go off on a spiritual, well, that's gonna be for another, uh, episode, but I would say that you do want, first off, first off, we are not our thoughts. Yeah. Um, those thoughts. We can see them and view them and say, Hey, that's a thought, but I don't have to accept that thought. I can let it just float on by down the river.

Right. I would also say this, that, that came to mind was, um, it's within the piece that we actually find who we are. . And, and I think that when we, when we can sit there at that river and let that flow happen, um, there's a piece about that because we're kind of coming back to, and this kind of ties into that idea of, you know, being authentic and, and kind of getting that place of inside of us, that 14 year old kid that's authentic and, and realizing that all he or she has to do is be, and, and let that piece happen.

And in that they will discover who they are. Right? And I think that is one of the fundamental beginnings of rediscovering what true connection means, right? Because our, our minor attempts at connection before were clouded through different avenues of approach called either alcohol or substance abuse or whatever it may be.

Those were our avenues of getting there. Um, but they were also lies. They were lies on top of lies on top of lies. And when you go 18 layers deep into lies, you start thinking those things are your realities. These stories that we've told ourselves, I am a funny guy. When I drink, I play beer pong the best when I'm drunk and I am capable of doing all of my homework after a couple glasses of wine I am capable of doing.

And whether or not those things are true or were true at one point or another, they will eventually get very sloppy and messy because alcohol and substances dup us, uh, very quickly and easily. And they start us exactly where they, where you want to be, and they end us up nowhere close to where you ever thought you could be.

Right? So, When you are thinking in terms of connection and we're having this discussion on connection, I think authenticity is a precursor and honesty is a precursor and oh shit, I can't just go out necessarily and say hi to somebody. Could you? Yes. I mean you can, and that is a good start. But also having that realization that in order to develop meaningful connections and to have purpose in those relationships as things move forward, the depth of those things will come first from a connection built with ourselves and.

People can see the fake, especially people in recovery. They can see when somebody is peacocking, they can see when somebody's trying to live in their egos or say they've got this, oh man, that phrase right there is like, one of the worst phrases I have ever heard in all of recovery is when somebody says, you've got this, or I've got this.

Yep. Uh, now mind you, I'm in, uh, you know, every, anytime I say that, I'm living in my own ego and I think I know something better than somebody else, so that I get to laugh at. But, uh, from what I've experienced, I just, I don't fundamentally believe in that. I think that it is through connection. It is through the collective.

It is through, we've got this that actually develops those authentic relationships. Absolutely. If I tell myself, I've got this, or if somebody tells me, you've got this, that is all I need as an alcoholic. To go back into complete and total ego. Well, I think that just pushes Well, I was just gonna say, I think that pushes start on your ego.

Yeah, it does. When you say that, your ego just jumps right. And go, yeah, we got this, man, let's go Taylor, let's go. Yeah. Motherfucker, I got this shit. I'm good. I'm good. I, I, Hey, you know what? See, I told you, I told you I got me here, but for some reason this time I'm gonna get me outta here. It hasn't worked 850 times outta 850, but I've got this Right.

Okay, buddy. Good luck. Right, exactly. And it's, and, and ironically enough, it's through connection that we learn to stop doing that. That is those people in our connection groups that stop us that'll say, Hey, wait a second. What are you talking about there? You know, call, call you on your bullshit. I need call you on your bullshit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what type of connections? Right? Because different people need different forms of connections. Well, Connection. Why do we talk about this so much in recovery and bring it up and all this other stuff? Is that regardless of whether you, um, have social anxiety or you are somebody who wants to be out there 24 7 with people, we all have connection in our lives.

Everything we do, whether it's at our job, whether it's, um, within our families, whatever family structure that might be, uh, whether it's just going to the grocery store and buying things and checking out at the, you know, at the cashier. I mean, you have a connection, you have a conversation, you know, with people.

So you can get it right. You know, you go to the car dealership to buy a new car, what are you doing? Well, I gotta talk to the car dealer and tell them what I want and how much I'm willing to spend. And I mean, that's work, right? I've gotta have my own, this is my, I'm drawing my line here and I want you to be aware where that's at.

So I get, I can buy the automobile that I wanna buy based on what I can afford and not get talked into something else. So the whole concept of connection on all those levels is work, you know? And we talk about recovery being work. Well, here's a, here's one aspect of recovery where the work is so important because it's within the connection that we're gonna stay sober.

That's like going back to. Hey, can I get my sobriety to go? That would be great. Uh, I'm just going to accept this, this, and this in the world, but I'm not gonna accept this, this, and this. Um, one of the, uh, things that I hear all the time, and I have a love-hate relationship with it, is take what works and leave the rest.

And the problem with that statement is it's giving the problem person an opportunity. To continue making decisions. Yep. And the part of the problem for me was it was my inability to make decisions. I be, I came here because I don't know how to make decisions and I don't know how to connect. And that phrase,  pretty much just tells you that you can make decisions and that's not what I feel is effective.

Right. , it helps. It does help it, it has its place, right. Just like everything in this room of recovery, it's everything kind of has its weird way of working out. And that's the beauty of all approaches. However, comma, from my experience. To say, take what works and leave the rest is saying, well, that brain that has been jacked up this entire time, that's led you down the road of chaos and self-destruction.

I'm gonna rely on that brain just a little bit longer to figure out what actually you need. I am sorry. You need to shut up, listen to someone else, and let them tell you exactly what bullshit they need to be called on so then they can actually start living a better quality life and ultimately get out of their addiction into solution and get back to usefulness.

Well, I agree. I mean, I, I'm laughing because I'm thinking of. You know where I was in early recovery and I was looking for an out. So if you told me, well take what you, what you think works and leave the rest, I would've fucking left it all. I would say, well, none of this shit works. I'm not like this, so I'm gonna go Thanks very much.

It's it's kid gloves and it's a kid gloves to handle an adult situation. And that's fine because in a way, when we come into the rooms, we're all 14 and we are children. Yeah. And we do need to be coddled in some way, shape or form. And depending on what you respond well to, you need to adjust the program or the approach per person.

And I'm a big believer in that as well. I needed stern, direct, and I'm gonna call you on your bullshit. Other people cannot handle that. And that will lead to more, more chaos, more self-destruction, and less. Recovery. So I do think that it is, it's not all encompassing. There. No, are definitely no absolutes.

Get it. Well it is funny, but I would also, there are no kind of tag onto that. The idea that, uh, we are not here trying to sell you on some sort of program that you should be doing. We are here to say you listen, you've gotta find your way in recovery in terms of what works for you. And I would actually say to uh, the listeners out there, if you are on the early days of trying to make a decision, you know, do I really wanna go down this path?

Or I'm curious Recovery. Yeah. So we're curious, I would say to you, be willing to just go look at everything. So go to an AA meeting, get online with an online group, you know, go to a smart re recovery meeting or. Check it all out. Read, grab a book, you know, grab a quit loop book and read, even if you read the first couple of chapters, just to give yourself a, a sense of what's going on.

I mean, that's kind of what I did. And then I started to really forge through what I felt was gonna work for me at the time. And I ended up kind of coming back to some of the, the things that I thought weren't gonna work. So that's the beauty of recovery is it kind of brings you back. Cause you're more willing to accept what's there and you look at it and go, well wait in, in the early days I said, you know, fuck you to that.

I didn't want any part of it. Now I'm looking at it going, well what in that can help me? You know, what in that can make this journey that I'm on even that much better, where I could get even better? And that's what I look for now. So I see all avenues of recovery. Good avenues, especially if they work for you.

You know, you need to find what works for you. No, I, I, yeah, I completely agree and I think. We also have a tendency to overthink and overdo in this world, and keeping it simple. Stupid is always the end all, be all. I am someone who loves to talk in ad nauseum about these concepts and ideas because they fascinate me and they intrigue me, and they, they give me drive into this.

But at the same time, I also need to give my bluff, my bottom line up front. What am I here to do? What am I here to achieve? What's, what is connection to this world of recovery and how does it apply to me? Even though we have given a lot of examples, the practicality in connection is it gets us out of ourselves.

Right. It gets us out of us and into something else, right? And through that you are not alone. And there are other people who have gone through or are going through exactly what you're going through. Their names and places may be different, but their stories are almost identical through every single person in the rooms of recovery.

And I don't even care if it's alcohol. I have seen my story. And every single person in some way, shape or form. Because at the end of the day, the commonality in all of us is that we're selfish and self-centered. Right? We came there for us. Why did you come into the rooms of recovery? Not by choice. I didn't wake up one day and say, Hey, I want to go get fucking sober.

This sounds fantastic. You know, like treating sobriety like it's a day at like fricking, uh, you know, the mountains, uh, you know, or seeing snow for your first time, you know? No, right. I didn't choose to come here and be a part of this. This is, this is the last thing on my mind, but I actually now have a sense of purpose that I'm here.

Absolutely true. And I do think even when I'm working with members in this online group and I'm watching somebody kind of struggle and go back and forth and they'll get, you know, 10 days or 12 days, and then they're back to day one and they'll get 20 or 25 days and they're back to day one. But it's when that person says, Okay, I'm done playing this game.

I'm, I'm gonna take this seriously. This is what I'm gonna do. And they kind of lay out a very structured way. They're gonna a approach it, you know, I'm going, I'm gonna get on a chat every day. I'm talking about an online group, or I'm gonna, I, my local aid meeting, I'm gonna start going there and I'm getting myself a sponsor and I'm gonna check in every day here and let people know what, what's going on.

I'm gonna reach out. And when you start to see that happen for people in my, at least in my experience, that's when I start to see them get successful. And, and I hear in their, in their posts and, and what they have to say, this change, you know, this kind of attitudinal change of it, the poor mes go away.

And the more of, okay, I need to keep forging ahead because it's a. And I'm making baby steps, and I'm getting another, you know, a couple hours in, I'm getting another day in. I'm feeling better about myself. I, I like waking up, you know, clean in the morning. I don't have the fog that I used to have. Like, they're starting to recognize the pluses.

And when you start to recognize the plus, and then when you talk about it and you're getting that reinforcement in your connections of, yeah, man, keep going. You're doing great. You know, 20 days is awesome, 30 days is incredible. 90 days. Wow, that's great. Day one. That's the best day. That's the best day. You know, or what I used to love in early days would be when I would come in and I would lay out all this crap that was going on, and somebody would easily just quickly post, you're fine, man.

You're right where you're supposed to be. And that's all they would say. And it was almost like this relief, right? Like, ugh, I'm not weird, I'm not well, and you're, you're a nor, you're a normal weirdo. Normal. Yeah. Well, you're accepted in the community. You know, if I were, and this is ironic, uh, when I, I love doing this almost sometimes.

Speaking of creating chaos in the world, , , uh, is. You know, the uncomfortableness that people will have, uh, when you start speaking about your recovery experience. And that's a fair reminder that not everybody is going to understand, get it or accept it, and they will judge it. And that's okay. I'm not here for you to judge me on this, nor do I really necessarily care about it.

And that's a genuine thing that I'm saying now. It didn't always used to be, but when someone hears about my journey and they're a, a, a non-person in recovery, they don't know what to say and they can't ha have or develop a frame of reference, uh, because they haven't really analyze things in that way.

And that's okay. But when I tell somebody who is in the world, the effortlessness that goes into them just saying, oh, you did. Oh yeah, me too. Oh, actually, no, like eight guys over there did the same thing. Ga uh, dude, like you're really, like, that's, you're not special and it feels great, right? So now that we have all our personal experience, do we have anything like, I don't know, scientific, back us up on any of this.

Eric, there, there's a Ted talk that I'm gonna try to turn everybody, all our listeners onto Johann Hari, h a r i, Johann Hari did a Ted Talk and one of the things that he, he talked about in there, he said the opposite of addiction is connection. And he mentioned a experiment that was going on. This experiment was titled Rats Park.

Yes. What's that? So, well, I guess it's a park that rats go to. I don. Um, like an amusement park, uh, sort of, and, and that's kind of what we're gonna talk about here real quick. So anyway, he was talking in terms of, um, addiction and so they did this, uh, study with rats. And what they did was they took, uh, uh, you know how if you ever have a, like a durable or something like that, you put that little bottle then in there with a little like nipple on the end so they can get their.

Yeah. Well they, so what they did was they put in a bottle of regular water and then they put in a bottle of water that actually had cocaine in it. Got it. And they put a rat in the cage without any toys, without anything, just all by their lonesome. That rat found the cocaine water and fell in love with it.

And got addicted, as you think. Yeah. As you would think. Right. So then the other part of it was that they put a bunch of rats into this thing that they called a rat park. And in that park were all the things that rats, like the spinning wheel, the cheese, all that good stuff. And they had a bunch of people to hang out with, or a bunch of other rats to hang out with.

Well, those rats were having such a great time connecting with each other that they weren't even remotely interested in the cocaine. They just drank the weather. Regular water. Yeah. And they, and then, and, and if they actually touched the cocaine water, it was random and it was not often. So they saw this difference that, hey, when we isolate a rat, look at what happens to them.

But when we put them in community, you know, with other pe, other rats, they don't look to be, uh, they don't look for a substance to numb them. They don't look for a way to not feel shitty or not feel alone. You know, I do think a lot of times substances are, are in place of a person. Well, we're lonely or we, we we're bored, or whatever it is.

I'm like, oh, well I'll sit down and drink, you know, drink. Or I'll sit down and I'll take a drug and get high, or whatever it might be. Right? So, You know what I mean? Well, yeah. Mean I'm guessing that like, you know, in this amusement park, it's all these other activities were positive influences and some absolutely sense of those.

Absolutely. Right, right. That's interesting that absolutely. They chose that, which to me as the alcoholic, uh, what you just told me was that I can do cocaine cuz it's not addictive. That's all I heard. Uh, right. That's, that's what you just to told me. Right? No, that's not what I just told you. Okay. No, I I, cocaine is addictive, man.

Cocaine is addictive. Well, wait a minute. I can justify the shit out of this. Just gimme five minutes, man. I got you. Of course you can , of course you can. You're, you're, you're an addict man. You know, you're gonna find a way to justify it, you know, but I think the big point was the idea that when we are in community, the, the interest in those things, uh, is, is much.

Than it is when we're alone. Um, so another study that came up that, that in this Ted Talk, uh, he taught, he mentions is, uh, the Vietnam War. So those of us that did any kind of historical study on the Vietnam War, any reading or just knowing that time period, uh, we found out that a lot of gis were taking drugs.

You know, they had access to heroin, they had access to, to obviously to alcohol, all those things. And then when they toured back home Yep. They got, they thought that they were gonna continue doing that stuff. Right. And they didn't. They didn't. They came back and, well, 95% of them didn't. There's still that 5%, which is a big amount.

Uh, I'm not right. You know, by no means should we not look at that and say, well, that's of course so bad. But the, the idea that they thought the majority of them would come back and be addicted, and that wasn't the case, is the, the more interesting piece to this. So the question would be, well, why? Um, well, we could easily say the why is that they were integrated back into their families, back into their community, back into their jobs.

You know, they, they were back into life and there was no need. And, and also there wasn't this constant fear, you know, of right, am I gonna get shot today? Am I gonna get blown up today? You know, or is my buddy next to me not gonna come back with me today? You know, those kinds of things that would definitely cause people to, I don't wanna feel that.

I don't wanna think about that. Let's go get drunk, or let's go get stoned, or whatever it might be. Um, so I think both, in both cases, the Rat Park and the Vietnam War, the examples were showing us how community, um, being a part of that and feeling a part of something is super important. You know, now you might say, well, wait a minute.

They were part of a unit in a military. They were, they they were part of a community. Yeah. But they were part of a community that was trying not to get killed. You know, and, and they were part of a community that was seeing a lot of crappy, shitty things that, um, no human being should ever really have to see in their life, you know?

Right. At least over and over and over again, like they were seeing. And, uh, and those communities did end up coming back though, and sharing, uh, in those experiences. Uh, it's shared trauma. I hate to say it, but that's, you know, uh, part of what they did end up in a community of themselves, you know, as being veterans.

Right. Like that is a huge community. Yep. Um, and brotherhood, uh, and sisterhood, 100%. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that, and that, that is a positive as well. You know, because at least then by having that you have, just like in a recovery world, you have now somebody that gets you Right. That understands where you're coming from.

You know, when you, you're in the trenches together. Yeah. And, and that's something that the average person that's never been there can talk about. They have no idea what that's like cuz they weren't there, you know? So, so, but it's just interesting how, you know, that kind of. Happens, you know, and then there's a lot of, so, so the idea of community and being around people.

Uh, he also spoke about, and, and you probably know about this show, uh, there's a show, I don't even know if it's still on anymore. It was called Intervention. And it kind of showed these, um, these moments in like family lives where there's one member of the family that has an addiction issue and this person kind of comes in like a coach or a, um, uh, you know, a therapist or whatever, and they decide that they're gonna do this hardcore intervention with somebody.

And in that, there's a lot of hard talk, right? A hard talk of mm-hmm. , listen, either you get clean or you can't see these people anymore. You know, you need to go away for 90 days, or you can't, you know, you can't be a part of our lives anymore. Um, so. The world of addiction. Embrace this idea of isolation.

You know, this idea of that's how you get sober. We isolate you from all these people and all these things that might have been your triggers and you'll get better. Versus why don't we show love and compassion like you were mentioning earlier, you know, to that day one or that's on their five thousandths day one.

We still need to show love and compassion for that person, you know? Oh yeah. We need to show them that they care, that we care, that they're lovable and that, that they're worth it. You know? Because they are. That's the other part of it, right, is that we, one of the things I know in my head would go like, well, I'm not worth it, you know?

Nobody wants to love me. Nobody wants to care about me. Nobody wants to do that cuz I'm a mess. You know? So that kept me in the mess, right? Because I didn't have. Well, why would I need to show up if I thought all of that, right? So I just stayed in the, the crap. Um, when you start to see that people do care, when you start to see that people do love you or, or the idea of joy, we talk about the concept of joy, which is complete fulfillment of, I'm so glad you're in my presence.

I'm so happy to see you. How are you today? What's going on? You know, showing that person, that compassion, that belief in them and wanting to know about them and so happy that they're there. For a lot of people in the world of, of addiction, they've never experienced that. Cuz all they've had are people jumping on them or telling 'em how bad they are, or that they need to clean their act up, or they need to do this or they need to do that, you know?

And now all of a sudden people are loving them at where they're at, which is, you know, in the shit. And they're like, whoa, wait. If I can be loved in the shit and if I clean my act up, I'm gonna really be loved because yeah, I can. So, and that almost like as a motivator, right? It motivates us to get there.

So I think there's a lot of great examples of, of how connection is so important in recovery and, and getting connected for each of us individually is, is a, a big key to, to success. I love it, Eric. I think that was really well said. And I think all of those examples take what one may think and turn it on its head to actual science-based examples, you know, and I love when, what I think is not reality because it tells me that there are a lot of things I assume in this world and I do not know.

And unlearning things is my greatest adventure so far on this thing is all the stories I've told myself in some way, shape, or form about almost my entire life. Have a haziness to them, have some dishonesty in them, have some misguided, uh, realities about them, and allowing my brain to absorb new information and not judge it and see things.

For us, they are, is a part of this whole thing. And I think that is what you just did in talking about these things we're actually knocking down barriers at societal, preconceived notions, uh, assumptions. If you would've asked me about those types of things and what the results were, I don't think myself and many others would've came to the conclusions that the research did.

Right? So breaking down those barriers and. Then taking that example and then starting to apply it in different areas of my life. Like how much other things are going on in the world around me that are just not true. Right? They're made up. They're made up by the greatest story. It's storyteller of Taylor's lifetime.

Taylor. Taylor. Like I, I've been writing this for 32 years. Right. And I can tell you there have been very few people who have gone back and edited it. And once someone did start going back and editing my work, it was one of the most beautiful things in the world. Right? Well, I, because it allowed me to get out of myself and into Yeah, what I could possibly be misconstruing about this, right?

My brain got me here. My brain can't get me out, you know? So I have to connect with people. I have to know that there are other people out there with shared experience that can have these types of discussions. And I think that, When we do our next episode, we're gonna be able to provide a fantastic example of this type of thing with our very first guest that we have on our show.

Woohoo. Exactly. Oh, I know. So great connection. That's a, that's a good segue there.

Every time I say segway, I just imagine like Adam Savage on a segway just driving around like, so every time I say segway that's where my brain goes. And um, well, I wonder if they're called segueways for the same reason that we use the word segway. Like it gets you from one spot to the next spot. I, I mean, yeah, but like, it's a segue.

So does the skateboard. Why didn't we call skateboard segueways then? Well, cuz it was named a skateboard. So you're gonna change. I mean, but then what about roller blades? With that, in conclusion, hey, thank you all for listening to this show. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining us today, and we would not be here without you.

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