Episode 04 - Oh Dear John

 Show Notes from the Hosts:
Taylor talks about the positive responses to the podcast. First Podcast to have a guest. In this episode we are joined by Cassie to discuss Dear John letters! Cassie took her last drink in August 2019. 
Set up the format of how we will deal with guests, more discussion and less of drunkalogue.
Eric is excited about the introduction of our Guest Format.
Taylor discusses shift in our relationships with alcohol.
Alcohol is a bad relationship that we need to let go.
Eric introduces the idea of alcohol and the intimacy we will have with it.
Cassie's one regret in early sobriety is that she never wrote a breakup letter with alcohol.
Taylor adds: The substance becomes comfortable and we don't want to give it up.
There is comfort in the familiar of our relationship with alcohol.
Time causes us to forget, but a Dear John letter creates a reminder or buffer to forgetting .
Cassie compares how women forget how painful child birth is when they want to do it again. We forget the pain.
Eric talks about how we only romanticize our relationship with alcohol and think that relationship was healthy.
Taylor talks about the 5 stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance is part of this "breakup".
What am I supposed to do now?
We get to the point with alcohol that it no longer serves me.
Cassie discusses how alcohol allows us to fit in.
Eric discusses that the early beginnings of relationship with alcohol
Our process with ditching alcohol may cause a rebound with other vices.
Taylor: We need to be honest with our role in this relationship.
Alcohol hasn't changed, we have.  I have to realize that I'm the problem.
Eric starts with the tool of the use of space to help us get through. Tool of space ask the question of why am I feeling this way.
Cassie would set a timer and do an activity to keep her mind off of drinking, which gave her that time, Also, write the damn letter!
Taylor has made his addiction an actual character that he could deal with. 
Taylor introduces the idea of HALT: Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. 
Takeaway tool identifying the true feeling of why you
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Transcript

Episode 04 - Oh Dear John

Guest - Cassie: [00:00:00] Sober and shameless episode.

Intro: Hey 

Host - Taylor: everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Taylor Klinger. And I'm Eric. Andrew. And this is Sober and Shameless shedding the Shame, the podcast that flips the script on what it means to live a sober life in each 

Host - Eric: episode of Sober and Shame. The host, along with the occasional guests, will pick a topic to shed their shame about, explore ideas on how to grow through those challenges and provide organic, lighthearted, honest, and unprofessional commentary about their experiences with addiction, strength through recovery, and life and 

Host - Taylor: sobriety.

Sweet. All right. Welcome back, everybody. All right. All right. All right. Friday. Oh my gosh. It's so good to be here. Woohoo. Woo. It has just been amazing, uh, at the recording of this specific [00:01:00] episode. Um, our podcast has officially launched and we have been seeing nothing but a lot of positive responses and just thank you, thank you, thank you to all the listeners out there.

We're so, so grateful to finally be able to share our journey with everybody and have everybody. Join us on this amazing adventure. So first and foremost, thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our listeners. Thank you very much. So this is our first episode that we are going to be having a guest on the show.

I'm nervous. Me too. I, I think I'm nervous. Uh, more importantly, uh, she might be the most nervous out of everybody. She might be going, what the hell am I doing here? . So, We have Cassie on the show today. She's 31 years old, lives in Colorado, and she walked away from alcohol in August of [00:02:00] 2019. Please help me say a warm welcome to Cassie.

Hello. Thank you. 

Host - Eric: Warm welcome. Thanks 

Host - Taylor: for warm. Welcome. These were live claps too. . 

Guest - Cassie: Yeah, and I, and I might be a little bit more nervous than you too. 

Host - Taylor: So I think it's gonna be an amazing episode today, and we're so happy that to have you here on our show, unlike other shows, instead of having it be a interview type format where we ask you a bunch of questions, our conversations today are going to be about a specific topic and we want you to just join in on that topic.

Speak from your own experience because we love getting other people's perspectives on things. So our topic today, if we can just go ahead and just jump right in. How does that sound? Does that sound good or, I did just 

Host - Eric: wanna say one thing, uh, in regards to all of this. I'm, I'm really excited about this because I think this is, this is going to give our listeners a, a really good [00:03:00] opportunity to see how we're going to proceed with guests.

Um, which we do believe is very different than what you sometimes hear out there on, um, sobriety podcast. Um, and I'm, I'm really excited about how we relate. Um, our own journeys to these specific topics. Um, not that we will be talking in nauseum about our journeys, but that there'd be these little tidbits that would come in and out, and I think that that's gonna be pretty awesome.

So I'm, I'm really excited to have Cassie here 

Guest - Cassie: today. Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here, so it should 

Host - Taylor: be good. So I think the topic for today, just the concept of our relationships with our substances. When I talk about the relationship I've had with my substance, I look at it like an intimate relationship.

It. Is full of butterflies that make me so happy inside. When I think about the beginning of my relationship with them, I [00:04:00] could not wait to see them again. I couldn't wait to experience the same air as them again. And slowly as that relationship progressed, it turned at some point, but we don't actually see it because that shift occurs and we're in the middle of.

And just like any other of our friends on the outside looking in, they can say, holy crap, this is a bad relationship. You need to ditch that guy. He's a dick. You know, or whatever it may be. We don't see it. And thinking about our relationships with the substances from the lens of like a significant other instead of just a mutual acquaintance.

Actually provides me a little bit more understanding of my behaviors in that relationship and allows me to focus on my side of the street, where [00:05:00] did I come in? How did I show up? Right? When you look at relationship advice in general, right? You can hear from your friends, take that same advice, but. Person, the thing that they're talking about as alcohol or as your substance?

Well, 

Host - Eric: I I thought that, you know, this topic was a great topic to talk about cuz I, I know that we, we hear a lot about writing that dear John letter. Right. You know that, that idea of breaking up with our substance. It's, it's also interesting because as we were doing the intros and everything into this, you know, I started thinking a lot more about my relationship and how, and you used this word earlier, Taylor, but the, the idea of intimacy, how intimate I really was with that.

I mean, that substance knew every single thing about me and never left, you know, just was always there. And, and I do think in the early stages of, of letting. That relationship go. That's what [00:06:00] makes it so hard is that it's, it's that intimacy of, but it's safe and it knows me and I don't have to then go out and try to be something with somebody else.

I already have that somebody, and they're here every single night with me and that's. Awesome. So I, I was finding myself relating to like human relationships the same way that I was relating to my substance, which was alcohol for me. 

Guest - Cassie: You know, Eric, it's funny that you brought up the Dear John letter.

Because I've heard a lot of people talk about how when they were in early sobriety from whatever substance it was, they wrote a letter to the substance and they, you know, were basically discussing their feelings about breaking up with it and all of that. And one of my personal biggest regrets in early sobriety was not riding one of those.

Really? Yeah. I, I feel like it would be something that is so interesting to look [00:07:00] back on now. You know, three and a half years later like, well what was I feeling in those early days? Cuz it's hard to remember sometimes I have a really bad memory. I don't know if anyone else struggles with that, but I . I would love to be able to look back on some of those feelings and just like reading that letter and being able to understand, okay, this is where my relationship with alcohol really was at during that time.

Instead of just trying to pull it from my brain now that it's been so long and I guess, you know, my relationship with alcohol and other substances, cuz I, I do have other substances like nicotine that are still a factor in my everyday life now. It is kind of like that comfortability, you're so comfortable with that person or that substance if you.

And it's hard to break away from that comfort zone that you've had for years and years and years. [00:08:00] So I, I think that's like where my brain went at first when you started talking Eric was, well, it's comfortable. You don't wanna break outta that cycle because you're living in a place of comfort and happiness or whatever it's bringing you at that time.

And, and to step outside of that would. So uncomfortable and scary and just like, that's kind of what I was thinking about when you were talking. So 

Host - Taylor: I love that perspective. And I would just say that. There's something to be said about the familiar to us. I think when things are familiar, even if they're destructive, there's comfort in that.

Because I've gone down this road before. Yeah, I know it ends in disaster, but I'm gonna keep going down it because I'm used to it. It's comfortable to me. And even though it's chaotic, That's okay [00:09:00] for some reason. So with regards to the relationship and the Dear John letter, I find it fascinating. You know, the regret that you are saying, Cassie, for not going and writing it.

I think it captures something. There's something said about that letter that a lot of people write because you capture a time, and I think it's across the board. I don't think it's just you regarding memory, we. Which is why I feel like my recovery journey is never ending. My substance will in a way, Change my memories and make me forget the pain that I felt.

I don't know if it's, you know, primal survival instincts of we forget our pain so then we can go back and do something. I don't really know exactly how the science works, but I just know that the longer I've been sober and the longer I get away from it, and you'll even hear this from people that are awake away from alcohol, [00:10:00] they.

Um, I think there's a joke in, in, uh, in, in some of the rooms of recovery. Alcoholism. The I S M at the end of it stands for insanely short memory. So , if somebody didn't come up with that, I mean, I feel like that's across the board. A lot of people are thinking that exact same thing, and it does. Our brains or our substances, whatever happens, this chemical in our brain says, oh, we're gonna forget about the pain and suffering so we can get you to go back out and do it.

And again, and again and again, and the Dear La John letter kind of works as a buffer for that, that you can go back and reference and say, no, Taylor, this is how you felt. This is where you were. And you're capturing that whole range of emotions and all the chaos. So then you can reference it and go, wow, I never really wanna replay that tape ever.

Guest - Cassie: Yeah, and [00:11:00] I, I do wanna, just to bring in another perspective on that whole forgetting thing, it, it is something that I, and I don't know the exact science, obviously I'm not like a scientific professional or anything, but it's the same thing in childbirth. Like a lot of women forget how awful giving birth was so they can do it again and have more children.

It's like something that's widely known. I don't 

Host - Taylor: know, but so birth is an addiction. Got it. ? 

Guest - Cassie: No, no, just the fact of like it just your brain kind of. Tilts that memory a little bit so that you're like, oh, it was such a joyful experience and I got my, my baby and it was so great. And yet there are a lot of horrors that come around that same time with, you know, happenings in the body.

And, and so your, your brain just kind of tweaks it a little bit to make it so that, Hey, I could do that 

Host - Eric: again. I think it's, uh, I, I also think that what's interesting here, I found this when I, when I started to get more days away [00:12:00] from alcohol, the same thing where you can look back at it and go, wait a minute, what was I thinking?

You know, like I, I find myself doing that in this situation that I was in, and I, and I think about how I did that with alcohol. Like I look back and go, wait, I thought that was okay. I thought this was okay. You know, where was I thinking that, that, That was, uh, healthy, what I was doing, . And uh, and it's so interesting because it, it really is a relationship, you know, you really do cultivate a relationship and I think a lot of times early on, you know, when people start talking about the relationship with the substance and, and the dear John letter and whatever people initially, I think a lot of people go, well, what are you talking about?

That's. You know, I didn't have a relationship with my substance. And then as they move down the road and they get clearheaded, they start to look back and go, yeah, I did. I mean, I was isolating. I was doing my own thing. I was staying away from other people and it was all about me and the [00:13:00] bottle or whatever it was.

So I think, um, You know, this idea of relationship with our substances is an important one to understand because it really, I think at that point will allow us to understand how to manage and break off from 

Host - Taylor: it. When you look at it from the lens of an intimate relationship, you can actually start to see coping mechanisms that are more healthy and positive.

So when somebody dies, we go through five stages of. And that is what I would be considered a healthy way of processing something. Once identifying that you're in that, you know, okay, now I'm in anger, now I'm in sadness. So when you look at it from a relationship standpoint, is it okay to miss your substance?

Can you allow yourself to miss it? And when you look at it from this perspective, yes you can [00:14:00] like, oh my gosh, we just broke. Give me a minute, right? You know, does a breakup go away after a week? I know that in early sobriety I've heard and I did myself. I'm supposed to be fixed now. I'm supposed to be back out on the streets looking for my next relationship within three days.

Everything's supposed to be fine. Everything's supposed to be fixed within a week, seven days. Is that a good number? How about 21? Can I get 21? Uh, do I hear 30? 30? Okay, can I, can I get 60, 60 days? Is that a good timeframe? I should have my life back together in 60 days. But when you look at it from a relationship standpoint, is it okay once you've been in a relationship for 25 years or 15 years or whatever, to not be okay for a year that.

Appropriate. Right. But when, but when we, but when we keep it as alcohol, Oh no. I'm supposed to have my life back together in seven days. I should be feeling great on 

Host - Eric: one day. Seven. Right? I mean, if you think about [00:15:00] that, that significant love that didn't work, you know, with a human and how, you know, you have those moments where you feel great and you're moving on and everything, but then there's something that reminds you of that person and just takes you right back to that moment.

And maybe there's, you know, I don't know, maybe a little g regret or just missing. Yeah. That situation a little bit and feeling a little low. Right. And then kind of, you know, I think the same, uh, when we can look at our substance the same way, because I think that's exactly what happens. You know, we have those moments, we're fine and we're, we're moving forward and then we have those triggers we like to call them, right.

That cause us to kind of just go right back into it. Like that thought 

Guest - Cassie: process. Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's exactly right, Eric. I mean, when you look at it from. That relationship perspective. I mean, I can't tell you how many times previous to my marriage where I was in a relationship, it ended [00:16:00] horribly.

And then I'm, you know, six months down the road going, oh, look at this random song that came on the radio and it's reminding me of that one time we were, you know, or whatever. And right. It brings you back to that entire place where you're like, man, I feel like I have to work through this. I have to go through all the work that I did to get over that person.

Again here, you know, it might not be like as much work, but it's like just having to go back and really think about some of those things and process them and then, you know, just, I wanted to kind of circle back though a little bit. You were talking about, you know, when you looked back on your relationship with alcohol and just like going, what was, I think.

What was I doing? Why, why? Why did I do that? It's like when you realize all those red flags in those toxic relationships. Yes. When you're in it, you don't see it. You don't see any of that. [00:17:00] And I can tell you from my own personal experience, I've been there, done that, and how many times my friends or my family or whoever tried to warn me, That's a red flag.

You know, that's toxic. You gotta get outta that relationship. It's, it's not, it's horrible for you, whatever. And how many times I listened to those red flags, probably about zero. Right? You know, none. And, and until I hit me too, a certain point where I was like, I'm fed up with this relationship, it's no longer serving me.

And then it was up to me to kind of get out of that. And then you go through the whole, you know, five stages of grief. And I, I felt like my relationship when, when I decided that I needed to get sober, it was kind of that same process of like really noticing, you know, these are the reasons why I can no longer have this relationship with alcohol.

It's not serving me [00:18:00] anymore. Clearly it's ruining my life. And I had to be the one to decide, okay, enough is enough. No one else can tell me. 

Host - Eric: Right. Well, think about the first stage of breaking up with somebody, you know, that initial like, oh my God, I have all this time and you know, I miss that we did this on Saturday nights, or, I miss that we did that on Friday nights, and you're missing that person.

And what, what is the first thing we really hear in sobriety? The initial days of sobriety? Well, what am I supposed to do now? You know, uh, I have nothing to do. I, my, my friends are all over there enjoying. Relationship. Right? And I'm not enjoying mine. And so we go through all that, that kind of denial part of I didn't have a problem, you know, now everybody else thinks I have a problem and, uh, what's that 

Host - Taylor: all about?

And I think, you know, we've brought it up a few times now. So I think identifying them, the five stages of grief, denial, anger, [00:19:00] bargaining, depression, acceptance. You know, having or continuing down this thought process of relationships and then grief, once we leave the relationship, they don't have to be dead.

You can grieve somebody who's just not around anymore. As we start. And I love what Cassie eight was saying about this. We, we know that they're a red flag, but then we have to take ownership. We have to take responsibility in this scenario. I don't think there's ever going to be a time where alcohol is like I, you know, you're just not pulling your weight.

I'm sorry, I gotta break up with you. Yeah, no, I, I don't think they're gonna do that. I wish they would. , I mean, Jesus, how much easier is it to be broken up with? And I don't know, uh, the jury's out on that one. I think that's a double edged sword. . Yes. So yes it is. You know, um, sadly, Uh, we have to be the one to break up with them.

I don't think they're going to break up with us. Uh, and when we [00:20:00] do, I've felt in actual past relationships when I'm the person breaking up with somebody, it actually was harder for me to break up with them because there was love still there. When I look at my relationship with alcohol, there are good times, and I would be a fool to say that there were times that I can't say every single time with alcohol was the worst ever thing that happened to me.

And I have actually heard many a times, uh, in the rooms of recovery. People will say, you know, uh, every day without drinking is, is 10 times better than everyday drinking? I'm the person that whenever I hear that am like bullshit. There are some stories that I've had and some experiences I've been through that are a sober day.

Can't compare to , but that's okay. That's not a bad thing. I can still have fond memories, [00:21:00] but know that, and I love what Cassie said. It no longer serves me. That language is empowering. It's so empowering because it brings it back to, for the first time, us caring about ourselves a little bit more than others.

And that's cool, right? Because that is then starting to show that we're making progress mentally and not doing things for other people or doing things on behalf of a desire a high or whatever. And we're getting back to rediscovering ourselves. Taking ownership and saying, I can't do this anymore. I've lost me in this process.

I've lost me in this relationship. And the whole point of me coming in here was because you made me feel comfortable. You made me feel like I could express myself in waves that I had never dared [00:22:00] to before. You made me feel like I could connect with people, but. I don't get those feelings from you anymore, and every time I try to talk to you about them, I don't get what I originally came here for and what originally drew me into you.

And I don't think you're ever going to change. I've changed and I don't like what I'm seeing and I need to do something different now. Yeah, 

Guest - Cassie: and I think too, and I don't know if you guys feel the same way, but for. I like really had to look at why I started the relationship with alcohol in the first place.

To really be unders, to really be able to understand why I needed to break up with it. And you know why it led me down the path. It led me down. [00:23:00] Cause for me, my whole relationship with alcohol started when I was a pret. I was real young in middle school and it was all about fitting in and I think a lot of that is something other people could relate to maybe.

But I kept that same narrative for 20 years, basically, you know, 20, 25 years until I decided I, you know, enough is enough. But it was trying to figure out that beginning of the relationship and why it started to really understand. Where it led me. Um, and I, I don't know, I don't know how you guys feel about that, but 

Host - Taylor: Well, question where, where did it lead you 

Guest - Cassie: down?

A really dark path. . Nowhere. Good. Um, yeah, I mean, I think for me it led so it started all about, you know, it was all about fitting in [00:24:00] and. You know, I really want to try and find my people and well, all the cool kids are doing X, Y, Z, and so I'm gonna do X, Y, Z, which was a lot of drinking and doing drugs and other things I'm not very proud of now.

But it got me into that crowd and then I was, you know, hanging out with all the cool kids all the time and, and then eventually that changed to where it was more so, well, I'm not hanging out with anyone anymore. Like yeah, I have friends. , but I'm isolating in my house and I'm no longer being social, and now it's just me and alcohol in a relationship in my, you know, bedroom drinking beers at 2:00 AM But like, it ju it just morphed into this thing where it wasn't even about fitting in anymore.

I just needed it to function. I don't know. It, it, it, and it's, it's sinister the way it happens. You don't realize it's happening until it happens. But yeah, I, I think. That relationship changes over time, and then all of a [00:25:00] sudden you're like, holy crap, how did I get here? 

Host - Taylor: And who have I become? 

Host - Eric: Exactly right.

You listen to all these stories and talk about abusive relationship, you know, our relationship with, um, our relationship with, uh, our substance was right, definitely abusive and narcissistic. And it, you know, it was all about the substance and, and we would do anything to protect it, even though it was really wreaking havoc on us.

And Cassie, like you, I did the same thing. I, I, you know, I had a. Problems, at least in my own head of, of fitting in. And alcohol allowed me to be looser and say things that I wanted to say that all the cool kids were saying and, and doing. And I bought into all of that. And then, but in the end it was just me, you know, sitting in my apartment and drinking and I would much rather be doing that than anywhere else.

You know, just that, that idea. Not thinking that that was wrong or or bad. And when [00:26:00] I think about, you know, what happened for me and that aha moment, and then there's some drinking that continued with that. It was almost like that initial, when you break up with somebody, you think you're gonna break up with them and you kind of say to them, you know, I'm not sure this is working out.

I might need a little time. And, and then you take this little time and then you're kind of back together again, and then you're kind of doing your thing and then it's still not really what you thought it was gonna be and now you're trying to pull away again. Yeah. And it's just this big, like tug of war and I think our relationship with alcohol or whatever our substance was is very similar to that.

Host - Taylor: Or once, once you break up with them, you just start having a relationship with, uh, ice cream. Oh man. She was so good to me. like then yes, then, you know, I start having a relationship with soda water. I mean Yep. Uh, she really knew how to, you know, get my juices flowing. 

Guest - Cassie: And then Diet Pepsi came in and was like, let me.

Let me get in on this too. . [00:27:00] 

Host - Taylor: Oh, you know what you need to replace her with? Oh, nicotine. Oh, you need to replace her with caffeine. You need to replace her with and, right. Honestly, if that's part of your process, please continue on. I don't think anyone's gonna tell you. Let's call the rebound. 

Guest - Cassie: Right. Hey, sometimes, sometimes you need a good rebound.

Like I, I'm all for, that's right. Like if you ha you gotta do what you have to do sometimes, like I remember the first time I quit smoking cigarettes and I. All I did was eat like 85,000 gummy bears because That's okay. That's all I like. I was like, I have to do something. I don't know. I did not, but it, it was pretty close.

It was a lot, it was way too many. Um, and I, and I think because you're 

Host - Taylor: all in 

Host - Eric: right. Do they tell you on the package how many's in in them? Like do they say a hundred gummy bears in? No, I think it, I mean 

Host - Taylor: like you could do the math, whatever number it says. It says no regret underneath it. So then you feel better [00:28:00] about it , 

Guest - Cassie: right?

No, I think they're like by the ounces or some, you know, it says just like 16 ounce bag or 

Host - Taylor: whatever. I bought an ounce today. Of what? Man? Gummy bears. . 

Host - Eric: Gummy bears Man. Well, now that could even be a bad, you know, like people like, oh, gummy bears. Hmm. Where'd 

Host - Taylor: you get those from? It's off the streets. Don't worry about it.

Right. 

Guest - Cassie: Anyway, though, I do, I do think sometimes you, you have to do certain things to be able to quit the substance or walk away from the relationship, and that's okay. You know, I, I think as long as you understand. You know, you're eventually going to make other changes too. Or if you're fine with where you are with the eating the ice cream or whatever it may be, that's okay.

It's just, I think having that acceptance of, okay, well I'm quitting this substance and [00:29:00] I may be replacing it with ice cream here and there. Well, it got me through and I'm not doing this other bad thing. That's fine. You know, and, and everyone's journey's different. Some people might be like, well that's not okay cuz I don't wanna be eating ice cream seven times a week.

But, 

Host - Eric: right. I mean, I love the analogy of, of like human relationships and this, and so I'm gonna make another analogy of it. The idea of like, think about when you break up with somebody, I mean, everybody's different in what they need. Some people need the rebound. Right. Some people just need to, to. Do something else for a while, right?

And, and just like lay low and kind of figure things out. We all need what we need. And, and it's just the, the idea is to get past the situation that we were in. You know, like, uh, you, I see so many times people talk about earlier like, why am I so, like, I need to eat barrels of ice cream or gummy bears or whatever.

It's, and you know, I'm always saying, and that's okay. You're fine. You can deal with that issue later. Just allow yourself to do this. Because this is what you need to get [00:30:00] through that breakup

Host - Taylor: and looking at it from that lens though, here are some things that I think we need to be careful about when we look at it from this perspective though, who was at fault in the relationship? Because in this relationship it was me, and I can only speak for myself, but I was the problem in this relationship.

Alcohol didn't change. Alcohol remained consistent in who it was and how it identified the entire time. I changed myself in the relationship, and when I look at it from this grieving perspective, I come out of it angry that alcohol lied to. But it didn't, it didn't change, it didn't do anything different.

I started to change and I am [00:31:00] responsible to look at things from my perspective and start to clean up my side of the treat, uh, treat my side of the treat, my side of the treat. Um, so. I look at it and say, wow, this is, I don't like who I became, and I'm the only one to blame in this entire scenario. I have to identify what things about me changed and who I really am.

And when we go through that process, as Eric was saying, of finding out what works for every individual, we have to realize that we have to get uncom. And the whole reason why I drank and was in this relationship was because I was comfortable at isolation. At that point, when I started to walk away from the relationship, I was comfortable with being alone.

I was comfortable with tricking everybody. I was comfortable with the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde [00:32:00] inside my brain. I got comfortable in the chaos. And now I have to get uncomfortable to get away from it. And in order for me to grow, I have to consistently be uncomfortable. I have to go out there and seek more meaningful, intimate relationships with other things and people and start connecting in ways that had nothing to do with the whole reason why I originally went to that substance in the first place.

Like Cassie was saying, why did we come here? Why did we start? With these dear John letters and with identifying our substance relationship as an intimate relationship. We get to varying points where we have to start looking at solutions. We have to start looking at, okay, now that we're broken up, where am I at in this process?

I am in denial that it was ever my fault. Then I'm angry that this substance did this to me. Society's to me, societies [00:33:00] to blame for this. The world is to blame for. Okay, now wait a minute. That's not quite true. Now I'm gonna make some bargaining. Okay. Maybe if I only saw you on the weekends, maybe if I only hung out with you on days that end in Y, you know?

Yeah. Then it wouldn't be all the time. Wait a minute. Um, but then you go back and you end the cycle over and over again, and then you get depressed about it because nothing's working. And finally we get to this weird place and Cassie mentioned it at the end of the last thing you said was accept. Yeah, I'm okay that we don't have to see each other anymore, and I'm okay knowing that I'm going to be uncomfortable moving forward, but I have the tools and the ability to find peace.

Yeah. 

Guest - Cassie: Yeah, I think that's great. I mean, it does take, and everyone's journey's different, but I think it takes a different set of time to go through those steps. And you may go [00:34:00] through them a bunch of times before you get to the point where you're at acceptance. For sure. It took me a really long time to get to the place of acceptance, even after I was sober for a while.

You know that that's probably a, a topic for a whole nother day, but just recognizing that it's okay to get to those places on your own time, in your own way and just having an open mind cuz I think. A lot of times we get to these places and we're like, I need to be in denial, and then I need to go through this and I need to do X, Y, Z.

And then eventually I'll get to this acceptance thing and I'll be sober and everything's gonna be great. Well, it's not gonna be this whole step process, you know, to-do list that you can just get through and be like on. On the other side, I'm sober and done with my substance and I broke up with it and all this.

It's a fluid process and it's always changing and just really having the awareness around it to be like, [00:35:00] this is all right. I'm okay with this, and I'm okay with going through it on my own time, in my own way. 

Host - Eric: So the, a tool that really worked for me, and, and I can relate it to regular relationship is, um, the idea of space.

And what I mean by that is from the thought. So let me put it in a human context, the thought I wanna call her up. You know, I, I wanna just call her up and talk to her, right? Yeah. And then I go, wait a second. A drunk text at 3:00 AM Yeah, right. Exactly. 

Host - Taylor: Wait a second. In this case, it's the weird sober text at 2:00 PM Yeah.

Host - Eric: Yeah. But what, so there's the space there would be, before I pick up that phone and make that phone call that I'm go, well wait a minute. Why do I wanna do this? You know, and ask myself, well what, what were the triggers that made me feel this way? Maybe I heard a song, right? Maybe I was watching a movie that the couple got back together, or something to that effect.

And the same with alcohol. Like when I think [00:36:00] about those moments, and I still have those moments once in a while where like, you know what? I just wanna drink. Right. That just sucks what's going on right now and the best way to handle this one, I want drink. And then I think about that for a second. You know, cuz I'm in the car, so obviously I can't do anything at that point.

So I'm driving on going, well wait a minute, why do I wanna do this? What's going on right now? This causing me to have this thought. And then I think back through like there was something frustrating in the day. Caused me to, you know, end up there and then I just try to breathe through it and, and think about it a little bit and go, is that gonna solve any, is that gonna make this situation any better?

Right. So a big tool for me is just the space, you know, the space between the thought of wanting to do it and then the actual doing of it. Yeah. 

Guest - Cassie: And that's like one of the greatest tools I think in early sobriety. One of the things I did that is kind of in relation to that, If I was having a craving and I was like, I need to, [00:37:00] you know, go drink or whatever, I'd set a timer for 20 minutes and I would go do something else, like fold the laundry, something that was so mindless that all I could do was focus on what I was doing, and then the timer would go off and I would be like, okay, am I still feeling.

Craving or, you know, and check in with myself and kind of figure out where I was at that point. And if it, I was still craving or triggered or whatever it was, I would set another timer for another 20 minutes and go find something else to do. But it created the, even though I wasn't consciously thinking about, well, why am I having these feelings and at least created that space, uh, for me to just be able to take time before just immediately reacting.

Um, cuz for me, I don't know about you guys, but in the early, early days it was really hard to clearly think about, [00:38:00] about anything. Right. So just having that time and then, you know, and then Eric maybe bringing in that conscious effort of, well, why am I feeling this way? You know? Right, right. Like combining those two things.

Host - Eric: Right. But then having that activity, that activity is really great too because it, it forces your mind to focus on the activity and not on what it's thinking about. 

Host - Taylor: Right, right. Well, and in early recovery, I have my addiction characterized as a separate entity inside of my brain. And what I started doing at the very beginning of my journey was, Figuring out who was talking so then I could talk to them instead of thinking it was all me inside of my head.

And I named him Gregory. Uh, and I picked that name because I lived with a roommate, uh, when I first moved outta my parents' house. And there was. A bug that [00:39:00] died on the ceiling and it didn't make any sense to me and it was really confusing about like the way in which it was dead on the ceiling. Now mind you, I know this is a very odd story and I do apologize, but the point was I said, this is bizarre.

I don't understand how this even happened. Like, what the hell? And my roommate said, uh, yeah, I have no idea. This doesn't make any sense to me. And I'm like, okay, well what are we gonna name it? Because I guess when I'm 20 years old, this is where my brain goes. Yeah. And this is what I thought . And he is like, well, let's name it Gregory.

And I said, why? And he's like, I don't know. I can't explain it. And for some reason, when I got sober, I chose to name my addiction, Gregory, because I couldn't explain it. And once I separated those two inside my brain, I could start having a conversation with him and treating him like a sick child or somebody I just got broken up with.

Pick one or the other. Don't pick both. That's awkward and weird, but , maybe I'll [00:40:00] cut that part out. ? No, leave it. Leave that. So I started looking at it like a sick child and trying to explain to him why this. Work anymore or why I can't contribute to his constant crying inside my head to say, go back, start drinking again, and you need to do all of these things for me.

You need to feed me, gimme my baba. I want my baba back. You know, like if you look at it, you know, maybe not from an intimate relationship lens, but maybe a relationship. A small child is another great perspective to look at, and when I started looking at things from that perspective, I also started adding in another thing too, which I got in early recovery, which is halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired.

And what I could identify is whenever he started crying, He was probably just hungry. He was probably just angry. He was probably just lonely, or [00:41:00] he probably was just tired. He needed to go take a nap, and I just started to have to start looking at, well, what do I need right now that's making him cry inside my brain and scream at me from the top of his lungs that he needs a baba.

Well, no, he's just hungry. Go eat and eat a lot of gummy bears while you're at it. Right? You know? All of a sudden, I realized that a lot of the crying inside my brain going on was just Gregory seeking attention. The only way he knew how to cope with the uncomfortableness of life. And does that fix the problem?

No. Does it fix the craving? No. Setting the timer for 20 minutes is still a great way to move that buffer along. I can tell you the 20 minute timer didn't work for me because my brain would be like, all right, 21 minutes, I'm gonna come back and fuck with you, you know? And. I think the activities are amazing.

Going and working out is an amazing outlet to [00:42:00] replace. Uh, there's something called the golden Hour as well where we start to drive home and that's when all of a sudden we get our cravings or we start to pass by a place and that's when we get our craving. Those are our triggers. Well, identifying those places.

And starting to figure out how we can avoid those or change our behavior. It's not a bad thing. I had two things written on my whiteboard when I got sober, and it was easy. Does it one day at a time. And I had to remind myself about that because I have expectations. My expectation was I need to be cured in seven days.

I need to be cured in 21 days, just like what I said earlier. And every time those expectations were not met, I got angry and frustrated and thought that the process of healing was not working. And guess who got hurt in that scenario? Me, every single time. Because then you go back out and you relive the same story over and over and over again.

And I think the thing Eric was getting [00:43:00] at was playing the tape forward of when you have these scenarios that are occurring inside your head where you want to go back out and you want to, uh, go back to your substance, or you want to go back to that unhealthy relationship you have to. About tomorrow morning, you have to think about the regret you'll feel when you go spend the night at their house and you fuck 'em one more time.

Guest - Cassie: Yeah, I mean, so you threw out like 85 tools. 

Host - Taylor: Sorry, . So, so 

Guest - Cassie: what's your takeaway tool? Tey, because Eric kind of said, you know, space, so what's your takeaway? 

Host - Taylor: That this relationship was actually a threesome, . 

Guest - Cassie: dunno what you mean by that, but, 

Host - Taylor: Well, there was alcohol, there was me and there was Gregory

Got it. And so my dear John letter is really to two people and . Yeah, and I think one [00:44:00] of them, I'm stuck with Gregory's, my kid born from me and Alcohol's relationship, and I'm stuck with him. Yeah. And my alimony is, Sorry guys. I'm so sorry. . I would say my takeaway is identifying the true feeling behind your craving and trying to relate it to your basic human needs.

Are you hungry? Are you angry? Are you lonely? Or are you tired? That's good. I like that. Yeah, me too. So, Cassie, then what's your. 

Guest - Cassie: Write the Dear John letter. It was something that I never got to do and I feel like writing it now would be kinda like, well, I don't, I don't remember my exact thoughts and feelings about where I was in the moment of one week of sobriety, and that was how many years ago.

So I think when you're in that tumultuous, trying to break up with the person or the thing or the substance, [00:45:00] Write it down, whether it's in letter form or not, just write down what you're feeling, what you're going through, and keep that. Yeah. And when you need a reminder, you know, as you're going along of, well, why am I trying to break up with this person?

Or why am I trying to walk away from alcohol or whatever substance it? Go back and read it and remind yourself, well, that's how I was feeling and this is how horrible it was, and this is why I'm gonna keep going. I think it's such a powerful tool and it's one of the things that I regret not doing in early recovery to really look back and have that later on.

So that, that's my tool. Write the letter. I like that 

Host - Taylor: Cassie, thank you so much Yes. For joining us on the show today. It was great having you, 

Host - Eric: Cass. 

Guest - Cassie: Yeah, thank you guys for having me. It was actually, um, really fun [00:46:00] and I'm just really grateful to be able to come on and chat with you guys and. You know, just have a conversation about it and yeah, so thanks for having me and super grateful for you and all the work you're doing, and I just really appreciate the perspective you guys are giving on guys shedding their shame about.

Being vulnerable and talking, and I think that's such a beautiful thing. So thanks for doing 

Host - Taylor: Thank you. Well, thank you. That means 

Host - Eric: a lot. That does. That means it a whole lot. Hey, thank you all for listening to the show. We 

Host - Taylor: really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining us today, and we would not be here without you.

Host - Eric: New episodes Air every Friday morning. This show is available 

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Then please email us@sobershamelessgmail.com. You can find all these links and more in the show notes, 

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Host - Taylor: and finally shed 

Host - Eric: that shame. Don't forget to take care of yourself today. We love you and you are worth it 

Outro: coming in. In hot.[00:48:00] [00:49:00]