Episode 11 - The Pink Cloud With Cassie

Episode 11 - The Pink Cloud With Cassie
Show notes from the hosts:
The topic for today is about the "Pink Cloud" and what it means in the world of recovery.  Are we still sober? Coffee promo and give-a-way. 
Eric presents the "Pink Clouds"
Cassie describes her first Pink Cloud and how it comes and goes and how we need to continue to work.
Eric agrees. In the first year we experience so many milestones and we are overwhelmed. Then we hit a wall.
Cassie, we get tired of the work, balance is what we need
Taylor: this is a fascinating topic. We have these high's and low's. Taylor describes Recovery Burnout.
Definition of a Pink Cloud-it is a phase that many people experience in the early stages of recovery.
Liver does rebound as we stop drinking
Taylor recognizes that all addictions follow a similar pattern during  relapse 
Eric, once we let it back in we start to surpass our past levels
Cassie: yes it is progressive and we see this in relapse
Taylor's pink cloud was in the beginning
Eric's pink cloud off on on for first year, then started to look for an out. Covid made me hyper-focus on his recovery.
It's fun and cool to be in Recovery, as long as you put in the work to keep it.
Cassie talks about the geographical cure and how pink cloud showed up, but went home and drank more.
Eric finds self-care and taking recovery breaks is a good thing.
Taylor Be careful that it's not the voice telling you to lock yourself alone.
Be aware, know that alcoholic voice vs. your voice
Things change in Recovery.
Cassie: What I put out into the world is what I get back. Am I making an effort to connect.
Eric: We are all human and flawed. It is still an individualized program.
Taylor talks about his shower wall Being of service of ourselves as well as others
Eric: Resentments towards myself as well as others-Tells an Oprah story
Taylor: I could be right or I can be happy.
Eric: Learning to let go
Cassie: gotta try to stop controlling things
This brings us to where we are today.
We can always have a fresh start
Enjoyed having Cassie on.

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Transcript

S&S EP11

Host - Taylor: [00:00:00] Sober Shameless episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Taylor Klinger. And I'm Eric. Andrew. And this is Sober and Shameless shedding the Shame, the podcast that flips the script on what it means to live a sober life 

Host - Eric: in each episode of Sober and Shame. The host, along with the occasional guests, will pick a topic to shed their shame about, explore ideas on how to grow through those challenges and provide organic, 

Host - Taylor: lighthearted, 

Host - Eric: honest, and unprofessional commentary about their experiences with addiction, strength through recovery and life and sobriety.

We could just 

Host - Taylor: open the show where I'm just whispering like this. Cause Cassie told me that I yelled to. I like Taylor like that. Like casting whispering. . . I think we just started the show. [00:01:00] It's, it's 

Host - Eric: easy on ears. Yeah. Whispering. What are we 

Host - Taylor: doing? 

Who 

Host - Cassie: are we? So you wanna talk about coffee? 

Host - Taylor: Oh yeah. Well, we are sober.

Speak for yourself. We haven't confirmed that. 

Host - Eric: Well, at least for today, we are right one day at a time, and today I am not drinking except for I'm drinking coffee. 

Host - Taylor: Let's do a check-in then. Cassie. Yeah. Are you still sober? Yeah, I'm still sober. Are you lying to me? ? 

Host - Cassie: Okay. When would I have time to go drink

Host - Eric: Taylor, are you still, so Taylor, are you still sober? Hell yeah. 

Host - Taylor: Woo-hoo. Eric. Are you still sober? Uh, 

Host - Eric: yes I am. Yes I am. No, I'm not. Okay, because I don't drink alcohol anymore. I can tell you what I do drink a lot of, Ooh, what is this? What's that? 

Host - Taylor: Coffee? [00:02:00] 

Host - Cassie: No one. Okay. Just a whole side rant about coffee really quick.

Yes. The, the coffee addiction that I have is neck level, and I mean that. We literally have our Keurig about two steps from my side of the bed. , 

Host - Taylor: it's in the bedroom. You would think that this is something she set up, but quick story, boring. When I lived at my bachelor pad and she and I were beginning to date, one of the very first questions she had for me coming over to my house was, why do you have your coffee maker in your bedroom?

And the answer was logistic. I had a roommate who was really big on coffee. I was not, but I had a Keurig and I didn't know what to do with it cause his took over so much of the counter space in the actual kitchen. So I just set mine up in my bedroom, not really thinking it was gonna be anything fantastic.

Come to find out, fast forward many years later, it is still in the [00:03:00] bedroom and my now wife thinks it's like the greatest thing. Oh, it's great. It's 

Host - Eric: honestly is the greatest thing ever. I'm thinking about that now going, Hmm, maybe I should be doing that. The 

Host - Taylor: only issue is water. If you have creamer that is in the refrigerator, which you can actually buy mini micro fridges, so they're like mini, mini fridges and they fit like one bottle of something in them, which probably was reserved for alcohol, but it's cream.

We haven't done it yet, but we want to. Once we do that, then we're next level. That's right. Because we still gotta go to the 

Host - Eric: kitchen. Well, I have a buddy who does pour overs and french presses and all that kind of stuff. Ooh, all the time. So fancy. Yeah. Talk about next level. We call him Mr. Bougie at work.

That's awesome. I mean, he just sent me a bunch of stuff to, to buy this stuff because I'm gonna teach you how to do a pour 

Host - Taylor: over. I mean, does it really change that much though? Like, I don't know. For me, I'm just like, [00:04:00] I like a good cup of coffee, don't get me wrong, but function. Quality over quantity. I don't know.

I'm somewhere in that equation that's like, let's be practical. 

Host - Eric: You can get as crazy about coffee as you can about craft beer, or you can about wine. . It's nuts. Yeah. And talk about trading one like mind. Fuck for another . 

Host - Taylor: Yeah. I like how you chose mind. Fuck 

Host - Eric: Coffee has become my new one. You know that?

That's like I'm all about it.

Host - Taylor: So you know what I'm excited about Eric? Know what? We are actually going to be doing a giveaway Wow. On our show, and it's going to actually happen at the beginning of next episode. How it works is the next 10 people to go on buy me a coffee.com/sober insane shameless, and donate [00:05:00] to. Which all those proceeds and that cost actually goes to keeping the show going and maintaining the subscriptions that we have to have in order to produce and provide this content to everybody.

They will then be entered into a raffle. Hmm, for a chance to win a prize and we'll announce it at the beginning of next episode. How does that sound? Dude, 

Host - Eric: that sounds amazing. I think that's awesome. I can't wait to see this 

Host - Taylor: happen right now. The only problem that I have though is like, I don't know what the prize would be, so like, I don't know, like, could we do like a sober and shameless t-shirt or something like that?

I, 

Host - Eric: I like that idea. Yeah. And it could say, buy me a coffee on the, 

Host - Taylor: Buy me a coffee. Yeah. Sober and shameless buy me a coffee. I don't know. Would that be a good t-shirt for Sober and shameless? I think so. Do 

Host - Eric: we have to put the www on there or is that like a non-existent thing anymore? 

Host - Taylor: Ooh, that's a good question.

Host - Cassie: I don't know. You would think I'd remember that cuz like, am I not the one [00:06:00] telling you. At the end of the episode to go get them coffee. Oh, that's your voice. 

Host - Taylor: I thought that was a stranger.

Host - Eric: Okay, so now that we got all that coffee stuff out of the way, , I think we're actually here to talk about a topic that Cassie brought to us. Ooh. Uh. And I think that topic is about 

wait for it 

Host - Eric: pink. 

Host - Taylor: Clouds. Ooh, this is gonna be a good one. Yeah. 

Host - Eric: Cassie, what do you gotta say about pink 

Host - Cassie: clouds? I mean, I definitely had that one, I don't know, three, six months over, somewhere around there.

But I think it can be such an interesting thing, like you get to this pink cloud moment and you're high on life, and recovery's going really well, and you're killing it. You're doing all the work, and then, All of a sudden you kind of relax, you maybe stop doing as many things as [00:07:00] you were doing before, and then you kind of get yourself into this little bit of a danger zone where all of a sudden you're kind of wondering, am I doing enough work to keep this sobriety going?

And sometimes there's, I think there's different paths you can take at that point, right? You can either go off into the ditch where you're drinking again or. You can kind of just rest on those laurels and coast for a little bit and then incorporate tools back in and get things back in a really good spot.

Maybe there's other pathways there. I don't know. But those are the two that come to mind for me. And yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I've kind of hit a spot recently with some of that. And I'm almost four years away from my last drink, so I think it can happen at any point in time too. I don't know.

What are your guys thoughts? 

Host - Eric: I agree and, and one thing that came to my brain was the idea of that first year. You know, that first year there's a lot going on. I mean, and it's all new, right? We were [00:08:00] celebrating literally every time we hit a mark. 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, a hundred days, right? Six months, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then all of a sudden we hit a year. It just falls off to. And in that first year, we are experiencing pink clouds. We are experiencing, oh man, you know, I sleep through the night, oh, I get up and I don't have a hangover. I'm losing weight. I'm, I'm, I'm energized, I'm focused. Like all these new things start to are, are old things that now suddenly have become new are coming back online for us and we're just like, oh my God, this is great.

And boom, we hit that pink cloud and we're feeling it, and we're feeling great. A concept of sobriety and I'll never drink again. And you know, this is the greatest thing. Why didn't I find this sooner in my life? Right? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And then boom, we hit that wall. Which I think is what you're talking about, Cassie.

Yeah. 

Host - Cassie: And I think it, you know, I think it looks different for everyone for sure. Cuz some people maybe they're like, I never hit a wall. I don't know what you're talking about. [00:09:00] But I think maybe 99% of us get to a point where they're. Oh man, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Like how do I keep going on this recovery journey or you get tired and I mean like recovery is a lot of work.

You know, you're putting work in day in day out in those early days during that first year. I mean, the amount of stuff I was doing in that first year compared to the amount of stuff I'm doing now, two completely different things. And I think that can get tiring. You know when you're going to the gym and you're working out four or five days a week or whatever, and you're feeling really good and you're doing that for five weeks, and then you hit that six week mark and you're like, my body doesn't wanna do this anymore.

It's so tired, and just trying to figure out where the motivation comes back in to keep yourself going. 

Host - Taylor: 100%. And I think that this topic is so fascinating to me because Cassie and I have actually had this [00:10:00] discussion multiple times, especially as our recovery journeys have continued and we. Hit these moments in our journey where we have really good highs and things are natural and flowing and we're really involved.

And then we have these lows where we're not doing as much, but we're not really necessarily even wanting to go drink because of the work that we have done in the past. But you also have to remember, and we do hear this a. We have this healthy amount of fear that is presented to us by listening to other people's stories that reminds us on a regular basis that if we don't do the work and if we just do nothing at all, the demon's gonna come back.

It's gonna hit us twice as hard. And this thing is progressive, so it doesn't improve with time. No matter how far away we stay from it, it's not like where you stop smoking cigarettes and you can actually physically get a scan of your lungs and watch them [00:11:00] improve over time. You get away from alcohol, at least from what I've been told, and I don't care if it ever gets debunked because I don't want this to not be true.

But from my understanding is you leave off pretty much right where you were at and when you jump back on again. Yeah, you might have gained an extra week or two of normalcy drinking, whatever you want to call it, but then it's gonna ramp back up again. So this whole idea of the pink cloud and resting on our laurels is very fascinating.

At the end of last episode, I think I made a really short comment, which leads into this topic today very, very well, because Cass wanted to come on and talk about this, which was recovery. And that's another very similar thing with as we go along, we experience these different changes mentally through our recovery journey.

And if people who [00:12:00] are listening right now are at the very early stages, I promise you're still gonna get a lot of value out of this episode because my pink cloud was at the very. Others listening to this show might go, what the fuck's a pink cloud? I've been sober many times and I never experienced that one time at all whatsoever.

So briefly, before we get too far down the rabbit hole into this, looking at the definition of what it actually means, from what I've gathered from the University of Google, one is answering the question to what does Pink Cloud mean in recovery? And the answer is, it is a phase. Many people experience in the early stage of their recovery from drug or alcohol addiction, sometimes referred to as a pink cloud.

Or the honeymoon phase. Now that's a phrase that I like because people that necessarily aren't in the world of recovery that do listen to our show can totally understand the honeymoon phase. Right? And so that's synonymous aspect to it, really kind of helps the [00:13:00] other person who might be listening in to support somebody who has addiction.

And then the Pink Cloud syndrome involves feelings of exhilaration or euphoria. That seems pretty straightforward. Another thing is, what does Pink Cloud symbolize? And what the internet says is the changes in your life that can bring to a place where the struggle is non-existent, that one hits pretty good, and everything is a little too good to be true.

So in all of. I think recovery, burnout, pink cloud, a couple years down the road in recovery. That's all a really good discussion for today. For sure. Hey, 

Host - Eric: you know, I, I think with, uh, just so we're clear, I think with, um, the, the liver, it actually does start to rebound after drinking has gone away for a while.

Like Oh, totally. To 

Host - Taylor: see improvement with that. Yeah. Yeah. And. Thank you, Eric, because I wasn't trying to say that there aren't [00:14:00] improvements in recovery with regards to the physiological side of things, but I guess I was saying more on the mental side of things. This thing is progressive on the mental side.

Right. In terms of like once we go back, That allergy doesn't ever go away and it just snaps us right back into the same absolutely mental state of over indulgence. Yep. 

Host - Cassie: I will also piggyback off that being a former cigarette smoker. Ah, I feel like they're very one and the same. And I, and I bring this up just because I feel like there are, are people out there who are probably gonna think exactly like I am and.

Yes. Quitting drinking and quitting smoking are both very difficult things. They are different from each other, right? You're gonna have different cravings and all that stuff. But for me it was very emotionally and mentally similar in the fact of I was years away from quitting smoking cigarette than I would still get cravings when I smelt one or whatever.

Mm-hmm. . So mentally, I, I don't think it's as progressive as where you have to like do all this recovery work. Stay away from [00:15:00] cigarette. That I don't, I think is a little bit different when it comes to alcohol, but I do think you still will have, like for me, I still had very similar cravings and things like that when it came to both quitting drinking and quitting smoking.

They're just a little bit. Like one's maybe here and one's maybe up 

Host - Taylor: here. And I think that's good to clarify because what the message I was presenting wasn't trying to be on the physiological side of things. I do think that there's a lot of similarities with addictions across the board. The point I was making is well relating to alcohol and even in cigarettes as well, the mental side of the game, right?

If you were to smoke a cigarette again, one would say that it probably would be catch. Real quick to where you were originally at, right? You wouldn't just jump to 20 cigarettes on day one. You would probably take a few days to get back to 20 cigarettes, right? But you'd get back there pretty quick. And that's all I was saying with regards to alcohol as well, right?

Is you jumped [00:16:00] back to where you were when you left very fast. And that's what is being meant when I say that it's progressive. And once you jump back, then it's going to take something almost worse to occur. A consequence, as I said in last episode, to occur, a worse consequence in order to reset the cycle again and jump back to the swearing off part of, I'm not doing this again.

Fuck this, I'm out. I think. 

Host - Eric: The bottom line in all of this, especially, I mean, obviously we're coming from the perspective of alcohol with this, but certainly with cigarette smoking as well, or any addiction. The moment you allow it back in, it's not gonna take long to not only get to where you were, but to surpass where you were.

Especially alcohol. We hear about that all the time and how many people go, oh my gosh, you can't believe it took me a week or so and it was back to where I was before. And I've been, you know, out of the game for four years, five years, 10 years, whatever. It's [00:17:00] amazing how fast. That mental obsession just comes right back.

Right. 

Host - Cassie: I would definitely agree with that because for me it was like I quit the first time and then within two and a half months of allowing alcohol back in. I was hard and fast, way worse than I was previously, so I, I do agree that, that it's progressive in 

Host - Taylor: that way. And it's also just as fascinating too with regards to how the brain decides to jump right back at that, like get back to that point.

As we've said multiple times, we're not medical experts, and I'm sure somebody way smarter than all of us could come on and explain why the brain does those things, but it's just as mind boggling to me as what we were starting to talk about too, of the idea of this pink cloud thing where. Some people who have gotten sober multiple times will say, yeah, I've had a pink Cloud experience only one time.

And others will be like, yeah, I know. Every time I've gotten [00:18:00] sober. The first month is a breeze. It's easy, it's effortless, it feels relieving, and I, it's not an issue. It's when I roll into month. Too that it gets hard again, and that's where I always fall off. Oh, it's right after 90 days. I always end up falling off.

The first three months are super easy. The majority of people, it's never like that. The majority of people, it's like, no, I don't know what you all are talking about. Y'all are nuts. This has been hard every single time, and it gets harder every single time and. Dts are ridiculous. Um, which, what does DT stand for again?

It's like dium, tremors, 

Host - Cassie: delirium. Tremors. Oh, I was right. Delirious, tremors, delirium. 

Host - Taylor: Something like that. I'm delirious. I don't know. So I think it's just as mind boggling as that kind of side of the fence. And briefly for me, my pink cloud was at the beginning, I had that jumping off. Where I dropped to my knees and I asked for the assistance of the universe, and [00:19:00] I had the luck of having somebody in my family able to take me in and show me the way of getting started in a program that really, really, really worked and benefited for me.

But that wasn't why I was on a pink cloud. I think I was on a pink cloud. And this is with the perspective of h. Because I was so defeated and just so at my breaking point that I had given up all hope and so everything else that was occurring around me, I considered bonus. And once I let go of the tensions of the world around me, because in my mind I shouldn't even be here anymore.

That level of relief in such a negative mindset, it was seeing that light at the end of the. Literally when I only saw dark for over a year before that, and that little bit of light just gave me all of the relief that I needed to just coast this. For the first three months it was. I shouldn't say [00:20:00] Coast.

I had no issue doing anything and everything I was asked to do. And before that, I resisted anything and everything I could possibly resist. And because I was no longer in a state of resistance and just in a pure state of yes, Taylor, I need you to go do this. Yes. Tey. I need you to go check this out. Yes.

Tey, you're gonna go to meetings every single day. Yes. I just didn't know what I wanted or how to do it, and the just simple yes aspect of things. Built my pink cloud. It built it into me, but that only lasted so long before it burnt out. And then I was left dealing with life on life's terms, which my recovery journey then became a little bit more of an effort, a little bit more of a grind where I had burnout.

I was sick of hearing Joe's story for the 18th time. How am I supposed to fix this? How am I supposed to do something different? And this is something that I had to do at month. Which I'm grateful for [00:21:00] because some people ride their pink cloud for 10 months and then they relapse because they don't have an out, they don't have a way to maintain.

I would 

Host - Eric: say my, I, I'm, I'm really not comfortable with calling it a pink cloud the whole time, but, but I did feel a pink cloud and then kind of just this euphoric kind of, I'm, this is, this whole concept of, of recovery is awesome. It's great. I'm so glad I'm part. And I kind of carried that through, I would say most of the first year.

And then I was plotting my, I was plotting my escape and, and my escape was, I don't need this. I know how to do this stuff a year. I didn't drink for a year. My God, I don't have a problem. What, what's wrong with these people? And I was trying to figure out, well, how do I get out of this? How do I get outta that?

And probably the blessing for me was, was covid. It kind of forced me back [00:22:00] inside and forced me to really focus in. I was in two groups at the time and I was kind of going back and forth at chats and really kind of delved into the work and really started working through. All the why's and the what's and all that kind of stuff.

Cause I had the time and that's to me where recovery. And I don't wanna scare people away cuz it shouldn't. But that's where the work happened. That's where I really dug in. And when I say dug in, I didn't just dig into, I need to stop drinking. I dug into, well, why was I drinking? You know what? Mm-hmm. , what was the reason I would use that as my way out of dealing with anything.

And that then led me to other things. That pink cloud in the very beginning kind of gives you this false sense that it's easy and that it's not gonna be hard, and it's gonna be this fun adventure, and you're gonna meet all these cool people, which by the way, you do. It is a fun adventure and you do meet all these cool people, but you kind of come to the realization that it continues to be fun [00:23:00] and cool because you are putting the work in when you're not working.

It's not fun and cool anymore. It sucks. 

Host - Taylor: I very easily could have said, oh, this is what getting sobers like, I can go drink for a little bit longer. This is what getting sobers, like , it's easy, it's effort. It's, yeah, whatever. I can do this again. So why not just relapse? Who fucking cares? Why does, why do these days matter?

And that's the danger of a pink cloud. It's 

Host - Eric: hard to come back, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. , the reality is coming back is not that easy. Yeah, it's, yeah, a lot more difficult. 

Host - Cassie: I can speak to that for sure, because when you're talking about like your pink cloud, I'm trying to think of what that was like for. And the beginning of my journey was not easy.

Like I did not have this whole, just like flowing through 30 days, 60 days. And just like to kind of put it into context a little bit, and I'm not gonna go fully into my story or [00:24:00] anything, but I went through detox the first time, moved my whole entire life to a different state, was trying to be sober and get sober kind of on my own.

That didn't really work out. I moved back to my home state, started drinking again, and yeah, I was feeling good when I was living in the other state. I was hiking and I was outside and I was loving exploring this new place and. I guess you could kind of say that it's like a pink cloud type of feeling, cuz I just felt like, oh, this is a really good fresh start for me.

Host - Taylor: That's a geographical 

Host - Cassie: cure. Yeah. That's a whole nother side conversation we could have. Mm-hmm. . But during that time it was still hard. Like I still had a lot of cravings, like thinking about alcohol all the time and doing all this stuff and I wasn't in a program. I wasn't, I didn't know anyone else sober.

I had no support but like maybe my family Anyways, so then I moved. And literally the night I got back, I started drinking. Like I literally drove into town at 10:00 PM and had [00:25:00] like two white claws, I'm pretty sure. Like I 

Host - Taylor: it just appeared in your car. 

I, I 

Host - Cassie: don't know how this, it just, that's just how it turned out.

And then that whole summer being back in my hometown, I was like, way worse than I was before drinking heavy, like way more heavy than I was before. More constant, just like off the rails. And then trying to get back on the recovery side of things again was a really difficult decision for me. And also like I hit a point where I was like, I guess I just don't know what else to do anymore because if I don't do something, I think I might die.

So it was like this weird battle and so trying to get back into recovery that, that second time, thank. For me, my story, I only had to do that twice and I've been able to stay on the recovery path since, but I know that's not how it is for a lot of people. And I think trying to come [00:26:00] back after going back out again is one of the more difficult things about recovery.

And that's like why we always, you know, we hear people say all the time, well, I'm not gonna go back out because I know if I go back out I might not ever make it back. Yep. And. I think that that's kind of what we were like originally planning to talk about today and we kind of veered off into all different directions.

But I think it's like what do you, what does it look like for us to stay on this recovery journey without getting burnt out during those pink cloud moments? Cuz I think I still do have moments in time where it's like, maybe this one month is going really well. Everything seems to be clicking and the universe is throwing things my way that like just opportunity after opportunity and all this, like just pink Cloud, amazing fun stuff is happening in my life.

But that's like that one month and then it kind of falls back into the routine of things and you're just blah [00:27:00] and going about your life. I, but I guess for me it's like what do we do in that? 

Host - Eric: I think it's a great question, and I would say this, one thing that I've learned a lot about, and I've dovetailed it into that, is self-care.

And it's okay to take a break. You know, we, we tend to think in almost everything that we do that we have to be balls to the wall, 100% going, going, going with everything, or we're not doing good enough. And if I'm not doing good enough, then why the hell am I doing this? I'm gonna stop doing this because I'm not good.

And we quit, and we do the same thing in sobriety that we do in any other thing in our life. I'm not good at this. All these people have better stories than me. All these people are getting their shit together. I'm not, fuck it, I'm done. Excuse my language. But I think that that's how people are. And I, I think what we have to be okay with is the idea that it's all right to take a.

Right, that it's okay to have [00:28:00] self-care, which means I'm shutting the shit down. I'm not listening to a podcast. I'm not going to a meeting. I'm not talking to a sober buddy. I'm not doing any of that shit. I'm gonna climb in my little cave with my ice cream. Yep. And whatever else. And that's it. I'm done for a couple of days and there's nothing wrong with that.

That's okay. Just as long as you continue to recognize. That can veer off if you're not careful. It's taking breaks is a good thing. It helps rejuvenate the why. Why are we doing this 

Host - Taylor: right? And to be the devil's advocate in that one is I'm an alcoholic. I love running away. I love taking time to myself, and I love shutting other people out.

So is that me that needs that request? Or is that my addiction telling me to fill this request because he knows he can't get me from my addiction anymore and he's not gonna try and get me to drink anymore. What he's gonna tell me is that Bill's story is pissing me off, and what he's going [00:29:00] to tell me is you need to go lock your way away from recovery.

And you know what? You need to go hide in a dark room and that's when I'm gonna attack you. That's when I'm gonna tell you that you need a drink. So don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I think in recovery, burnout and going through these moments where, where we feel like this is a lot, I need something to change.

But when we make that change, we need to hold on to some form of accountability because locking ourselves in a room. And just shutting the door on everybody is what will get me to go back out. If it's drugs, if it's alcohol or whatever, that is a recipe in my mind and only me that I would say is the fastest way to end me back in the bottom of a bottle.

Right. You make a good point. Yeah, and and it's not right. It's just, oh no. It's just what my brain goes to is [00:30:00] I have to be careful. If I were to take that break Yes. And to take that step back instead of taking that break, maybe modify my recovery approach. Right. Right. Maybe do something different in the world of recovery, because there's a lot of shit to do out there.

Well, 

Host - Eric: right. And self-care. When I brought up the term self-care, you learn a lot about that in recovery and one thing for me that self-care is, is going on a hike. Mm-hmm. going, reading a book, going to a movie, going and getting coffee. Yeah. Ooh, . Shout out to the coffee. Going to do those kinds of things. So yes, I mention, you know, sometimes closing yourself up in your house and, and eating ice cream and getting away from the world is one way to self care.

For sure. Yes. But tey, you're right. And I did mention that a little bit. The idea that we have to still be vi vigilant, you know? Mm-hmm. , we can't allow it to take us down the rabbit hole again. 

Host - Taylor: And I've been that guy in my recovery. Cass can attest that there's been days where I just hit that wall and I'm like, no.[00:31:00] 

Turn off the phone, turn out the lights and gimme my time. I'm still sober. So you can do it. You just have to know when you're doing that, that it's you talking. You have to send that pulse from your brain to your toes. Is this me requesting. Or is this my addiction? Trying to do something else to get me to go back 

Host - Cassie: out?

Well, and I think what comes to mind when you're talking about it that way is you have to be able to be aware, like awareness is key. When you're thinking about the way you're approaching your recovery. If you are not able to clearly understand where you are at with your recovery, you won't be able to change your routine or, you know, take a break or do any of these.

So for me, I kind of think of it like this. I check in with myself and I'm like, okay, how am I feeling? Okay, I'm feeling good. Okay. I can probably take a break and I am totally [00:32:00] the one, like Eric said, who would shut myself in my room with ice cream because I am an introvert at heart. . And so I do need to like recharge my batteries, which 

Host - Taylor: happens a lot.

She is married to me. Yeah. 

Host - Eric: So , talk about overstimulation. Woo. Yeah. 

Host - Cassie: If, if y'all didn't know . Um, so I, I do find myself having to take the, the time to really sit down with myself and say, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna binge watch some Netflix because that's all I have in me today. And also, I'm also a nursing student, so my life is so busy and stressful and chaotic that sometimes all I can do is sit and do nothing because I just don't have the energy.

But you know, back to the whole, what I wanted to speak on basically is you just need to be able to have that awareness of, if I stop and take this break, am I gonna go off the rails or is it [00:33:00] gonna be what I need for my self? , and I think that's, you know, there is a fine line to walk there, but I, I do think you can do it.

And that's kind of where I found myself recently is, you know, last summer I was working with a, a sponsor. I'm doing 12 steps. I'm doing all these things in my recovery and then I just bam hit a wall where I was like, I can't even figure out how to fit this into my schedule anymore. And then I started feeling guilty.

Yeah. About the fact that I'm not doing. Meetings, or I'm not talking to people in recovery and I'm losing all these friends that I've made or whatever it. , and I'm like, well, I feel like I should be doing so much more. And then it starts to weigh on me and it's like, wait, this shouldn't give me anxiety. It shouldn't weigh on me.

I should be wanting to do these things because they're helping me in. I wanna do that. I don't know. I think maybe that's recovery, burnout. Maybe that's just hitting a certain point in your journey. I don't know. But just trying to figure. Why do I have these feelings like, can [00:34:00] I have these? And still, like, I'm still sober so I'm fine, but like maybe I need to start doing something different.

I 

Host - Taylor: love this part of the conversation because I feel like this is where it actually goes deeper. I, I feel that way too. I feel like there are friends that I have come to love in the world of recovery. And I was so engaged with them year one, year two, year three, and now I'm not. And they didn't go anywhere and I didn't go anywhere, but we all went somewhere else.

Not because they relapsed, they're all still sober. But priorities have changed and I feel guilty about those priorities changing. And the best thing I can do when I start to feel that guilt and that shame, because I do, I feel. I, I feel what you say when you say it because I've gone through it as well, and I have [00:35:00] somebody in the world of recovery that had said something amazing that I always default to whenever I start to feel this way.

And it's from my great friend Tanya. She said people come into our lives for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And some people are just there for a reason. Some people there are for a season. And some people are for our lifetime, and we have a lot of people that come into our lives that we think there is no way in hell they're ever going to leave our lives, they're ever going to disappear or become strangers again.

And when we're so vulnerable in the world of recovery because we're trying to redefine ourselves and so are they. Some of those definitions look very linear. And then very polarized as we grow through this, and it is dang near impossible to write an algorithm that says all these people are going to maintain relationships as we continue down this road.[00:36:00] 

And the only way I can find solace is by thinking about them in terms of a reason, a season or a life. And I know Cassie knows this phrase because I actually used it in my proposal to her to get married, . Um, and I'm so far, she's not a season, uh, . 

Host - Eric: Be careful. 

Host - Taylor: Oh man. , there's still a chance to fuck this up.

There's always a chance 

Host - Eric: for that. 

Yeah, 

Host - Cassie: I mean, just like we say, there's always a chance to fuck up our sobriety too. And I guess like, I wasn't necessarily meaning like specifically to people, but more so just. My involvement in interacting with the recovery world. So like, just, I'm reframing that a little bit cause I, I just wanna bring it back to what I'm putting out into the world is what I'm getting back.

Right? And so I think it all boils down to how much am I really going to be putting into this? Am I reaching out to the people? Am I attending meetings or chats [00:37:00] or whatever? Am I going on hikes with people in recovery? Am I making my amends, whatever? Am I doing these things? And if I'm not doing them well, no wonder I'm not getting anything back.

Like no wonder my sobriety cup doesn't feel full right now. No wonder I don't feel like I have that pink cloud. I if I'm not doing the stuff to fill that cup, to shoot me into this world of euphoria and all the highs and positives and the universe throwing things at me. Well, it makes sense. Of course, I'm not gonna have that.

Wait, we have to earn this. I mean, I feel like am am I wrong in that? Like maybe, maybe Eric can shed some light on, on what you feel, but like I think you get out what you put in. 

Host - Eric: First off, I agree with everything that's been said. We come into this world of recovery, for lack of a better word, broken. And we have certain ideas about what friendship is and what relationships are and what people in our lives are.

We, we, and we bring that kind of broken [00:38:00] idea with us. And I know early on in sobriety I got pretty frustrated with people in in the sobriety world until I realized what Taylor was saying and I've now said it, not just in a sobriety world, they say it Now, in my own personal life, people come into our lives for reasons and they may only be there for a brief time.

And we may learn some heavy duty shit from them about ourselves and who we are. And it, and it, it's a shift. And I, and I truly now embrace every person that comes into my life, whether it's for a moment or whether it's for a, a season or maybe even a lifetime. I think that's an important part that we need to understand sobriety.

And the people in it are human beings and they still live a human life and we're all flaw. And we have to understand that, that even though we're getting healthy and we're getting healthier in our mental states, we still are [00:39:00] us. And to me, when I look at the sobriety journey, as much as we talk in terms of connection and the people that are around us and in our lives within sobriety and how they even support us and all that, it's still an individualized program.

Yep. Every single person in this program does it a little bit differently. And it doesn't mean they're wrong, and it doesn't mean they're right. What it means is this is what works for me and Cassie. I've gone through that where I'm like, well, maybe I should be doing this, or maybe I should be doing that, or why am I not doing this?

Or why am I not doing that? Or more selfishly, why are people not fucking calling me? Yeah, . And then, and then, then suddenly going, why am I not invited? Well, maybe it's because I'm not doing anything . Maybe it's because I'm not showing up at a chat. Maybe it's because I'm not talking on the phone. . Maybe it's cause I've isolated, I don't know.

Maybe I'm the problem here. I don't wanna go. I just want the invite. [00:40:00] Yeah, 

Host - Taylor: well 

Host - Eric: exactly . 

Host - Cassie: Isn't it so true though that us alcoholics think the world revolves around them and like that's exactly where you just brought me to. Cuz I'm like, oh, yep, here I am thinking everyone should be reaching out to me and what am I doing?

Like come on,

Host - Taylor: on my shower wall. Is a sticker that one of my friends in recovery made for me and sent to me, and it's on the shower wall because it's an affirmation that I need to remind myself. Actually. It's not really even an affirm affirmation. It's an affirmation in a weird way because it's not saying like, you're awesome,

What it says is you can't control the rotation of. And that's all it says, but to me that is the most impactful thing because it's telling me that I am not the center and that I am not the one controlling all of this. I am not the one [00:41:00] responsible for all of this, but I do have a part to play and it is all encompassing of all of those things, and it's stopped provoking.

So even though it's not a direct affirmation, it wakes me up to the fact that I am not the one in total control. I can't control other people's. Whether or not they want to invite me or include me, and the absence of work is going to show when we are doing the work, regardless of what it is. I would say that it's being of service, it's being of service to yourself when we're out of our own way and looking and caring about others and not focusing on whether or not I was invited, but being happy for the ones that were shifting that perspective and changing.

Into a narrative of service where you are happy for others and their success and you are trying to get out of your own way by caring about somebody else. And even though it might not start off where you actually give a damn, when [00:42:00] you try to pretend to care, it actually ends up morphing and changing.

And this is one of the gifts that the world of recovery gives you when you get out of the pink cloud. If you are in. And when you do realize that after you've taken your day of Netflix and chill in the dark, you gotta keep the grind going and you gotta get back out there and just say, hi, how are you today?

How is your mental wellbeing? Even though yours is fucked, just listening to theirs might give you the peace that you're looking for that day. And being of service is one of the cornerstones of this journey of recovery. Right. 

Host - Eric: Well, it gets you outta your head cuz you're focusing on working with other people and also gets you away from the idea of resentments.

You know, back to what we were talking about. Well, how come people aren't calling me? Oh, well I'm not calling them. I can easily build resentments and I did. Towards people who weren't reaching out to me. Like I would text them and I [00:43:00] wouldn't get a text back. And it was funny how certain it was certain people that I would feel really resentful towards that did that.

And then there were other people that I wouldn't hear back from them for weeks, and I didn't give a shit. You know, I don't know. 

Host - Taylor: I, you know how resentments work. . 

Host - Eric: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it's not linear. Well, I had to realize, my resentments actually started with me. It's so easy in, in sobriety when we hit that wall and we wanna take that break, and we we're just exhausted with the concept of doing the work, that it's very easy to build resentments.

Build resentments towards whatever our program is, build resentments to others in sobriety that maybe we feel are doing better than we are in sobriety, and why can't that be me, that fucker, those kinds of things where we just continue and then suddenly we stop and go, whoa, wait. I'm doing the same shit I was doing.

When I was drinking, I'm resentful as a, you know, worse even than what I was. Why? Why is [00:44:00] this such a part 

Host - Taylor: of my life? And you are still drinking when you build resentments, you're just drinking something else. It's not tangible, but you are drinking poison and you're the only one dying from it because everybody else doesn't know that your resentment exists and that you have a problem.

You're right. 

Host - Eric: I heard Oprah Winfrey say this once. She had a, a falling out and a resentment towards a old friend. And she held onto that resentment for 20 some odd years, and they were both from Chicago and everything else. And she tells the story that one day she was walking down the street in Chicago and their boom on the other side of the street was that old friend.

And that old friend didn't see her and didn't acknowledge her, but the old friend was talking and laughing and having a good time with other people. And Oprah Winfrey looked at that and immediately in her mind said, wait. I'm the one that's having the problem here. She's not having a problem. I'm holding onto something that happened 20 years ago.

This woman has moved on with her life. So what does [00:45:00] that make me? That I'm hanging on to something. It happened that many years ago. This person isn't worried about it, so why am I still worried about? And it was such a great example of what we do. This is how we as humans hang on to things. We hang on to.

Shit that happened long time ago, and maybe even those people aren't even around anymore and we're still angry, we're still 

Host - Taylor: frustrated. And I would say that it's because I was right. I'm gonna stay mad because I was right. Right. , one of the most beautiful things that I heard, and yet again, it's in the rooms of recovery, was I could be right or I could be.

And I think that's the thing in that scenario, I don't know the whole context, but that among many, paint a picture that is someone being happy and then someone choosing to be right and choosing to be angry and hold on to the fact that they were right about it. And that actually is something that I'm struggling with right now in my life with one of my [00:46:00] old best friends who was at our wedding and he lived with us for a.

I struggle constantly on whether or not I should call him again after taking him off of all of my social media. And that's something very real. That's something that is right here, right now in my life and I'm bringing it up on this show because that's all part of recovery is I know in my heart of hearts, And I'm right about whatever, but something inside of me doesn't feel right.

Something inside of me feels off about the whole scenario. And some, a part of me really wants him in my life in some way, shape, or form, because of the legacy of our friendship and because of him just being a good person. But we had a big falling out because, well, one, you don't have people move in with you.

Okay. If there's any pro tip from this episode is don't move in with your friends. Okay? Maybe your wife. You can move in with your wife, . In all of this, we still have shit to go through and grow through. Even [00:47:00] in multiple years of recovery, there is no end point for this. I'm going to fuck up a million times more.

But in this conversation, I'm seeing part of my role of my ego saying, I need to be right more than I need to be happy or want to be. And that's a very powerful thing that this episode is actually helping me with right now. So thank you for even bringing that up, Cassie and Eric. I appreciate 

Host - Eric: it. Yeah. The flip side to that, Taylor is, and this is a part I'm working on in a lot of aspects of my life, is the letting go.

Yeah. You know, cuz I can, if you tell me to find a reason why somebody should be in my life, I will sit there and I will give you hundreds of reasons why somebody should still be in my life, . What I need to do is learn how to realize sometimes that letting go is the best thing that I can do for that person and for me mentally.

And that is a big struggle for me that I'm working on and I'm [00:48:00] getting better at. But that's the flip side to what you're talking about as well. So I just wanna throw that in there. Yeah, I 

Host - Taylor: appreciate it. I 

Host - Cassie: like both of those points and I do think a lot of it is just being able to, trying to stop controlling.

Because a lot of that is me wanting to pick and choose who I have in my life and be in control of all those aspects. And that's one thing that I have to constantly work on, which also kind of goes in with the fact of saying, Hey, I'm gonna let this stuff go because if I don't, it's gonna eat me alive.

Mm-hmm. . But in order to do that, I also have to. A little bit of that control to be able to do so. 

Host - Eric: I think all this is great because when we start talking about the topic of hitting a brick wall or having that lull in sobriety, these are all the different issues that kind of come up when we're trying to figure out, well, how much sobriety do I need?

How much you know, going to meetings do I need, how much reaching out do I need to do? All of these things kind of come up in that process. And we're all at different spots in that, [00:49:00] right? You know, some of us are needing a meeting a day, right? Uh, some of us need a meeting a week, you know, it just depends.

But all of these things that we're talking about really do relate to that whole idea of going through that lull, because where does that lull then bring us? And, and you know, where do we want to go with 

Host - Taylor: that? For sure. It brings us exactly where we are today. Facts, everything that got our listeners to where they are.

Everything that got our hosts where they. All of it got us here having this conversation today. And the most beautiful thing is regardless of where we've been or where we've come from, we have a choice to make today on what we're going to do moving forward. And the beauty of recovery is we can always hit the fresh start button, preferably not the relapse button, but the fresh start button on the day.

Well, and I think 

Host - Cassie: what you mean by fresh start button is, okay, maybe I've done all the quit lit reading and I feel like that's not working for me anymore. So yes, I need to just change up my recovery routine where it's like, [00:50:00] okay, I'm gonna try to go to this new sober fitness class, or I'm gonna go meet up with these people I've never met before online because.

They're also sober and they seem like really cool people. And we're gonna go to a coffee shop and, and then go on a hike. Yep. Like the fresh start to me is I'm changing up my recovery routine. I'm not hitting the reset button where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go out and drink and then start over. No, I'm gonna do something different to keep my recovery exciting and fresh and, To kind of keep me, you know, on the level of I can do this, versus feeling like I'm not doing enough and this could be dangerous.

Host - Eric: Well, Cassie, I would just say this to you that if I was out there with you right now, I would buy you a cup of coffee. . 

There it is. Hey. 

Host - Eric: And we brought all, brought it all back to buying coffee, right, . 

Host - Taylor: Oh my goodness. That is fantastic. . This has been an amazing episode, as ha have all [00:51:00] of them, and thank you, thank you, thank you to Cassie for coming on and co-hosting this with myself and Eric.

We're gonna have Cassie on the show multiple times in the future. We really love her perspective. Love you, 

Host - Eric: Cassie. 

Oh, I love you guys 

Host - Cassie: too, . Thanks for having me. It was a good conversation. And yeah, I'm looking forward to doing more of these. I think being on this show and coming and talking to you guys and talking about recovery things, I think is one of the things that helps me on my journey and keeps recovery fresh and it's something new that I've never done before for my recovery, and I think it, it'll be really good going forward to come and pop on and, and chat recovery world stuff with.

Keep, keep my ass sober. , 

Host - Taylor: yes, I 100% agree and I think Eric and I couldn't agree more that this is originally and has been for us. Yes, everything else is benefit where other people are listening, [00:52:00] other people are relating and other people are gaining value from this. But at the beginning of all of it is accountability for myself and Eric and all the rest is bonus.

And helps us so, so, so much. I will say for all of our listeners out there, if you do have questions or you do have topics that you would like, Cassie to bring up in future episodes or myself and Eric, whatever. Please, please, please find us on social media. Yes. And reach out to us. We can shout you out for the topic idea if you want to.

If not, you can remain anonymous. Cassie is able to see our Instagram, and if you want to talk to her directly, please reach us at. Is that one sober and shame. Yeah, it's sober and I need 

Host - Cassie: to get that clear. . Yeah. 

Host - Taylor: Sober. N 

Host - Cassie: Shameless to all of our listeners out there. We're so good at this podcasting thing, , we, we [00:53:00] don't even, we don't even know what our Instagram handle is.

Wait, are 

Host - Eric: you talking about our 

Host - Taylor: email address? No. Email is sober. Shameless sober. Shameless, right? Yeah. But if they want to DM us on Instagram, then it's sober. N. Shameless. Right. It 

Host - Eric: almost sounds like that we we're just guest host here, right? We don't know what the hell we're doing. . 

Host - Taylor: Yeah. So whoever's hosting this shit, could you figure this out?

We just screwed 

Host - Eric: it up. 

Host - Taylor: Producer . Yeah. Seriously. Hey, I've been called worse than a host, and on that note, we love you all. Thank you for listening. We look forward to next episode. Yes. You guys in. 

Host - Eric: Hey, thank you all for listening to the show. We really appreciate it. 

Host - Taylor: Thank you so much for joining us today, and we would not be here.

Host - Eric: New episodes Air every Friday morning. This show is available wherever you podcast. 

Host - Taylor: You can join the conversation throughout the week by following us on Instagram and TikTok by searching at sober the letter n Shameless. [00:54:00] If you would like to be a guest on our show or would simply like to send us an email about this week's topic, then please email us.

Sober shameless@gmail.com. You can find all these links and more in the show notes. 

Host - Cassie: Interested in supporting the show. Then buy us a cup of coffee. That's a drink we can enjoy without regret. Just simply navigate to buy me a coffee.com/sober and shameless. That's S O B 

Host - Taylor: E R. S H A 

Host - Cassie: N E L E S s, and you can give us a cup if you'd like.

We'll send you a sober and shameless sticker in the mail and post a photo on our Instagram thanking you for your support, 

Host - Taylor: and finally shed 

Host - Eric: that shame. Don't forget to take care of yourself today. We love you and you are worth it. 

Coming in regular, coming in hot.[00:55:00] [00:56:00]