Episode 14 - Boundaries Part 2 - The Helper

Episode 14 - Boundaries Part 2 - The Watcher

We are joined by _________________ to discuss the other side of building boundaries.
Show notes from the hosts:
In this episode Taylor and Eric continue the conversation about boundaries and what it looks like from the watcher's perspective. This is a two part series which will provide two perspectives, the addict's and the watcher's.
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Transcript

S&S14

HOST - TAYLOR: [00:00:00] Sober and shameless episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the show. I'm Taylor Klinger. And I'm Eric. Andrew. And this is Sober and Shameless shedding the Shame, the podcast that flips the script on what it means to live a sober life in each 

HOST - ERIC: episode of Sober and Shame. The host, along with the occasional guests, will pick a topic to shed their shame about, explore ideas on how to grow through those challenges and provide organic, lighthearted, honest, and unprofessional commentary about their experiences with addiction, strength through recovery and life and sobriety.

HOST - TAYLOR: What's up, Eric? 

HOST - ERIC: Hey, how you doing Taylor? Happy Friday. 

HOST - TAYLOR: U G I F for all of those listening out. There it is Friday yet again. Can you believe it's already been, oh my gosh, a leash since [00:01:00] our discussion last? Oh man. It just 

HOST - ERIC: seems like it goes by so quick and we're already at Friday, but I love Fridays, so I wish Fridays could be every day, dude, I 

HOST - TAYLOR: agree.

And I just have to. For all my food lovers out there. Does anybody else love goldfish as much as I 

HOST - ERIC: do? I I could take 'em or leave 'em actually. Really? 

HOST - TAYLOR: Yeah. Dude. Flavor blasted goldfish. So during the introduction song, I just had a mouthful of flavor blasted goldfish, and I was really kind of scared that I wasn't going to be able to.

Finish eating them before we had to come on the microphone. But all I'm saying is flavor blasted. Goldfish are amazing. I love them. You 

HOST - ERIC: are such an addict, man. I am sorry. You know, you even have to set it up where, all right, I'm gonna eat this food and let me see if I can get it done before I have to start talking, just so I can live on the 

HOST - TAYLOR: edges.

You don't ever do that to yourself. Like set these little incremental goals for yourself, like while you're doing one task and you just say, okay, I need to beat the clock on this. Is that just like a competitive, I don't think that's an addict thing. I think that's just a [00:02:00] competitor's thing. 

HOST - ERIC: I think you're right.

I, I know I used to do it when I would do a show, so I'd be about to go on. Okay. Like literally 30 seconds. I would take a drink of water, I'd be just drinking water as, as I was almost ready to walk 

out. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Onto the stage. Yeah. I mean, I think water's a little less dangerous though. I mean like you're just like drinking water to make sure that you have a clear pallet, so then you can walk out there and speak without sounding like you have a spit in your mouth.

But that too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. So speaking of Friday though, do you have anything good planned this weekend? Man? I do. 

HOST - ERIC: I do. I'm excited. Have a plan to go hiking. I said that before I, it sounds like I go hiking a lot. 

HOST - TAYLOR: You need to quit going hiking. You sound boring. No, 

HOST - ERIC: I'm also gonna get a run in as well.

You 

HOST - TAYLOR: have been running a lot. I saw you posted on Facebook. You ran three point. Two miles or something like 

that. 

HOST - ERIC: On the last run, I ran three miles. It was the first three mile run I've done since the injury, so I'm pretty happy about that [00:03:00] actually. Are 

HOST - TAYLOR: you like incrementalizing yourself though? Because I, I know a couple episodes ago we had talked about how you had these like fractured, like shin splint thingies going on with your legs that you didn't know what happened with.

And now you're running three miles. I mean, it's only been like four episodes since we had that talk. So what? What's up man? Well, yeah, but 

HOST - ERIC: that talk was after the injury was almost healed as well. The injury happened in October. Oh, okay. Okay. Right. So I have been running incrementally, I so a little bit at a time.

So three miles is the furthest I've gone since the injury and I wanna start running five Ks again. So I'm getting close to being at that rhythm. And I'm actually probably gonna sign up for a 5K towards the end of the month. Sweet. So what are you doing this week, Taylor? This weekend Cassie and 

HOST - TAYLOR: I are getting out the dirt bikes.

Nice. Yeah, we're getting out the dirt bikes. We're excited. We're, we're getting Now is this 

HOST - ERIC: the first time for the season? 

HOST - TAYLOR: Yes. And at the end of last season, uh, well, middle of last season, I operator error stripped my drain plug. And that's a big no-no. [00:04:00] And not only did I do that, but I learned how to heal.

And then I screwed that up. So I have a split engine case that now is being held together with, uh, JB Weld. So I have to check the status of that and decide, oh my God, if the JB Weld, uh, jerry rig I have going is going to last me until I have enough money to replace my engine case and. It's been a really great learning experience, I have to tell you.

I bet. 

HOST - ERIC: Yeah. So, and it'll be even a greater learning experience to see what happens when you go out 

HOST - TAYLOR: there with this. I need to like set some parameters on how and when I decide to do something verse when I let the professionals do it. Because when I got sober I was like, I'm gonna start doing everything.

And then there are some things that you really need to leave to like, you know, the. Or the guy who fixes your bike. I guess what I'm saying is I need to set boundaries, Eric. That's what I'm saying. Ah, yes. 

HOST - ERIC: Boundaries. Thank you for bringing that up, because I think that's what our topic is 

HOST - TAYLOR: about. This sounds a little redundant.

Didn't we [00:05:00] do this last week? 

HOST - ERIC: We did, but this is Wait for it. Part two. Two. What? 

HOST - TAYLOR: We have two of these. Yes. We're delivering on our promise. That never happens. We are, we're an alcoholic. We're not supposed to deliver on anything. We aren't. You're right, 

HOST - ERIC: we're not.

So remember part one was from the perspective of the addict. Part two is from the perspective of the people outside of the world of the attic. Ah. So family and friends. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Gotcha. But we have to be careful with that though, because even though we have friends and family that talk about this type of stuff, we still wanna protect them.

Just like we talk about anonymity in the world of recovery. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. So do we have a guest or is it just me and you? Just We do have a 

HOST - ERIC: guest. Awesome. We have a guest and her name is Michel. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Hi, how are you? Hello, Michelle. Hi. 

HOST - ERIC: Welcome. Welcome. We're glad to have you. Thank you for being here.

I'm happy to be [00:06:00] here. So I've known Michelle for 25 years, believe it or not. I can't believe that. You know, every, every time I think of that I'm like, wow, it just feels like yesterday. But I've had an opportunity to really get to know her over the years and she is a great person and I really enjoyed talking with her.

And we started talking about this topic of boundaries in the world of addiction, and she was kind enough to be willing to come on and talk about her experiences with. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Yeah. That's really awesome, and thank you for coming on the show to speak with us about this today. We are so excited to get your perspective on the utilization of boundaries, what they mean to you and how you implement them when it comes to dealing with people who are in active addiction or going into recovery.

GUEST - MICHELLE: Thank you. I mean, yes, I've known. 25 years. We've had many discussions over that period of time. I have had the experience of an addict in [00:07:00] the family and also friends who are addicts, and my perspective boundaries is probably a little bit of a different point of view. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I believe everybody needs boundaries.

All of us need them. I mean, there's healthy boundaries, there's unhealthy boundaries, there's boundaries. Need to be followed and not crossed. And sometimes there's a confusion with that, especially with an addict or somebody that's dependent on some kind of mind or body altering drug. Right? It's very important to set your boundaries and discuss what the expectations are, but as the person on the other side, it's more your job to try to keep the boundaries straight.

HOST - TAYLOR: Yeah. At the end of last episode that. A big kernel of truth that myself and Eric explored was, you know, it's not your fault, but it's your responsibility from the perspective of the attic where, you know, one of the biggest [00:08:00] things I had to learn in my addiction was trying to transition my narrative from being a victim into be and, and being part of the problem to being a creator, a manifestor of something positive, to then be part of the.

And it's so hard for us to do, but it's so important for us to know and understand when the other person, and I've only learned this recently, is beating their head against the wall. Trying to figure out how they can help, trying to figure out what they can do and how they can affect positive change while being supportive.

It is a fucking ridiculous challenge to try and achieve, and I did not see what I was laying waist to in my addiction. And so to hear it from somebody else's perspective of dealing with people like me, dealing with people that have to put up with my shit, I, I have nothing but empathy for [00:09:00] it now. And, and I've only gained that from years of sobriety, and I can tell you if I go back out, I'll probably lose it.

And that's, I, I need to know that. That's nice 

GUEST - MICHELLE: to hear you say that. You notice it now and, and I'm so happy. You can say that and you do notice it now. Yeah. It's really important to people like me on the other side to hear someone say 

HOST - TAYLOR: that. Well, good. I'm glad. And Eric, I'm, I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir, right?

Well, yeah, 

HOST - ERIC: and, and Michelle, what you just said is the point. We need to learn how to communicate. And the addict is coming from a place of not understanding that in the middle of their addiction, but as they come out of that, they have to be able to communicate to other members in the family or other friends or whoever it might be.

So I do think it's important that we hear. What both sides are going through or what they've experienced through this A and in that we can learn how to solve things and how to fix 

HOST - TAYLOR: things. Exactly. Couldn't agree more, Eric. So then [00:10:00] Michelle, from your perspective, what do boundaries look like for you and how do you see the development of positive boundaries as well as maybe the avoidance of negative?

Or unhealthy boundaries. First, 

GUEST - MICHELLE: I'd like to say that I believe boundaries are important for everyone regardless of your situation. I think they're especially important for people that are off the rails because structure and consistency is always good. And again, with the, the healthy boundaries, I think where you set expectations and limits and the person understands them, where unhealthy boundaries are not clear and it's, it's up to.

In my case, me to make them clear to the person that needs to understand them. And if you don't have a good communication with the person you're trying to set a boundary with, it's going to be even harder. So I think you have to establish some kind of trust, or you can at [00:11:00] least communicate what the expectations are because of eventually what you're expecting is probably not what you're gonna get.

But if you have some kind of communication with the person relationship closeness, where it's not head banging heads, I feel like you make it further with the expectation of the boundary. If you don't have a boundary, it's not gonna only affect the person addict. It's gonna affect everybody else along the 

HOST - TAYLOR: lines.

I love what you had to say about setting expectations and then experiencing something different. Could you elaborate more on some experiences you've had in relation to that? I can, 

GUEST - MICHELLE: I can relate to a friend that was always calling and always wanting to come by, and always wanting something from me, and I was helping and saying, yes here as long as you do this.

Say for instance, I'm hungry, I don't have any food. Okay. I would offer to bring food. No, I want the money. Well, [00:12:00] no, that's not, that's not what's happening. You know, you have to do this and it, it's just that you get taken advantage of when you're trying to do the right thing to help somebody when they're not able to help themselves.

But yet they know what they have to do to get the help they need, even if it's just food. So I had to say, I'm sorry, you, you know, you can't come by the house. Or if they called as hard as it was, I wouldn't answer the. And then they got the message and then they would slowly kind of conform to what the boundary was or the expectation was.

But then again, sometimes depending who the person was, I would move the boundary just a little bit and then that wasn't helping that person. It was making me feel better for a little while, but it wasn't helping that person. So it affects so many different people. When you don't set a boundary, it it affect.

The family, it, it affects the roles that the family members have [00:13:00] because now everybody's on guard. Everybody's watching, everybody's worried. And I know people don't like boundaries, but they're so important because I feel personally when you set up a boundary for somebody or something, it shows you care about them.

Even if they don't eventually, like, like you said, you know Taylor, eventually they get it, hopefully. You show care and compassion when you set a boundary for somebody cuz you care what they're doing or what they're not doing. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Right? When I was given an inch, I would take a mile and if I could smell the sense of lack of boundaries or lack of commitment to what they were saying, whether it be a parent of mine, a friend of mine, if they told me an.

You do this or this occurs, I would hone in on that little bit of bullshit. No, you're not. You're not gonna commit to that. I know you're not gonna commit to that, [00:14:00] and I'm gonna press you as hard and as far as I possibly fucking can, and I'm gonna call you on your bullshit. You ain't gonna kick me out. I know that for a fact.

You ain't gonna. You don't have the guts to do it, and that was my mindset. I did get kicked out so it didn't work out. This is something that is such a balancing act in setting boundaries that we have to figure out for both sides. I think that for me, the addict, I will try and manipul. And do everything I can to maintain status quo, maintain the original reason, whether I knew it mentally, conscious or unconscious, to continue down my self-destructive path.

And I wanted to keep that train going at all costs. And love wasn't a factor. Love was a poker chip that I could play and put in front of somebody and say, but you have this. And I [00:15:00] know you wanna keep this so I'm gonna use it. And that's not right to say that is shameful to say, but it is part of growing past that is acknowledging that's who I was.

I think for 

HOST - ERIC: me, blurring the lines was a big part of my problem. You could set a boundary and that didn't matter. I felt like I could push past it and if I felt like that you were buying me pushing past it. I kept going and I think when we look at healthy boundaries, The consistency of holding to the boundaries is important to that relationship.

Yes. And that goes for all relationships. So you set a boundary. The consistency of everybody following that boundary is what makes it work. When that person like myself or Taylor is in the mix and we're blurring the shit out of the line and we keep pushing the pylon and getting away with it. It breaks down and there's no consistency, and we struggle with that and, and it really [00:16:00] then creates very weird, strange dynamics between the relationship, whether it's a friendship or whatever it might be because of 

GUEST - MICHELLE: that.

And as hard as you may try to blur the lines or stretch the boundary or just keep pushing and pushing, it's that much harder on us to stay focused to try to help you. Or help the addict stay on track because we're trying to do what's right for them, even though we can't help them, they have to help themselves, but to try to give some kind of boundary for them and it it like the tough love thing.

Like that's, I struggle with that because it tough love and love. Like if it's a mothers son, a mother daughter, it's a friend, it's a spouse, it's, it's different. Your love for your child's unconditional. Your love for your spouse is different than a love for a child. And love for a friend is even diff more different.

But as hard as it is for you to stay within the boundaries, it's harder for us to keep [00:17:00] them for you. We struggle, we lose sleep, we worry. We feel guilty for all that we're doing to help you when you may not see 

HOST - TAYLOR: it that way. And you know what's interesting? And while you say this, I haven't really thought about it until we're having this discussion.

I can really identify with a lot of what you're saying. Ironically, because at two years sober, I had an individual at 16 years old ask me to help him get sober, and I did everything I could because for me, this is how it worked and this is what I. And I tried my damnedest to implement all of those things that got me to where I was with him.

Success is yet to be determined because success is something that is arbitrary. I'm not the one that does it, the universe does it. I am just an instrument and a tool that is being utilized to assist. [00:18:00] And ultimately the decision is up to the universe to decide his fate. And he is ultimately above all of that, deciding what he chooses to do.

And I feel like a failure even to this day because he was able to move into my house and he did all the things I did and I watched him do it, and I banged my head against the wall for a year and a half until eventually I had to do the one thing that I thought I was not capable of. Because love above all.

That's, that was my, uh, in a way, my motto in my brain, love above everything. No, you're not gonna be the one that walks out on him. No. You're not gonna be the one that says no to him. No, you're not gonna be the one that does this. You are gonna be the cool guy in the room. You're gonna be the guy that supports him, but doesn't enable him.

And all of these things and everything that you are saying right now, I, I just, it blows me back into that mindset. [00:19:00] I'm not gonna go into his past or his story or anything like that, but he is still experimenting and that choice is his and all I can do now as the watcher, as the guy on the other side.

Ironically, weirdly enough, I'm the fucking guy on the other side now watching. Me in reverse. I don't know if this is, if there is a God out there, I, this is some funny shit. I guess I don't, you know. Um, and in more seriousness note though, I now can understand and it is a lucky situation to end up getting sober.

It is so lucky and what works for one person doesn't work for the next. And what boundary works for one person doesn't work for the next, whether you're the addict or the one dealing with. It's just so fluid and there isn't, you know, the tough guy answer of kick him out might work amazing for one, but [00:20:00] completely destroy the other.

HOST - ERIC: It's very true. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. One thing that came to mind, a word that came to mind, Michelle, when you were talking about trying to hold those boundaries for that person was the word frustration. That feeling of, what else do I have to do? How far do I have to. To make this work. 

GUEST - MICHELLE: And the frustration is for both, for me being frustrated and also for the person, because I've spoken to the person sober and wow.

Like, I see what you were trying to do, but like just didn't care. Like, and then going back to using, and again, not caring. So it's like, it's like a vicious circle. And it's frustrating for me or for the, for the other person on the other side. And it's also frustrating for the addict. Because they just can't get it.

They can't, can't rationalize it. And I know I have, I have sympathy for the addict because I know it's a mental health issue and I, I know that there needs to be so much more [00:21:00] awareness and so much more care and attention given to this because it's, it's so prevalent and it's so, 

HOST - ERIC: I. And it's not easy. It's not easy, and it's not easy for the addict either.

I know in my head, while I was active, there was a part of my brain that kept saying, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? This is ridiculous. You need to stop. But then I would get to the end of the day and it would kick back in and go, oh, you had a hard day and you worked really hard. It's okay. You can have a drink, you know, and all of that.

And I was back to where I was. And so that frustration that the people outside of us feel is also frustrating the addict as well. Yes, because they can think about it. They, they can acknowledge it. You know, when we talk about the concept of our brains and that left side of our brain, that intellectualizes, they can read and get it and see the importance of it moves a lot faster than the [00:22:00] emotional side of our brain, which has to function in the.

So that concept of frustration, I think you're right. It does fall on both sides for sure.

So here you have this boundary. You're trying to hold them to a boundary. It's not working. So then you decide, all right, well maybe I can make an adjustment, you know, to try to make it work for that person. Michelle, do you have any insight on what an adjustment might look like with somebody in addiction?

An 

GUEST - MICHELLE: adjustment or a moving of a boundary would. Entertaining a conversation that I said I wouldn't entertain anymore, but I, I would entertain it again and I would listen and I would feel sorry and I would try to look at it from a different perspective, but it was just another way to manipulate me to do something.

Also, for me personally, to, and I discussed this with you before in the past, like to meet somebody that's struggling and they need money for food, they need money for, for shelter, [00:23:00] please, just this one time. And I would go with food and a hotel booking and no, I don't want that. I just want the money. Well, no, sorry.

And take the food and throw it in the garbage or take it home with me and leave. And that's a hard boundary to hold. But there were other times where I gave in and I said, okay, you know, um, here. So go eat what you want to eat and please call me and check in. It's where you struggle as the person on the other side, and it depends who the person that you're helping or breaking the boundary for.

You know, because there's different scenarios and different situations, right? But in the end, it's you and it's any other family members that are around you that are affected because now there's no trust, there's no sense of security or safety, and there's no respect almost, you know? You don't follow what you say, so how can you really [00:24:00] expect respect?

But yet again, you're going way over and out of the the realm of what you agreed to. So you would think there would be a little bit of respect and moving and adjusting the boundaries sometimes is with good intention, but it's, once you set a boundary, you really should keep the boundary because then you're leaving a big open space for other behaviors and other 

HOST - TAYLOR: expectations.

I've seen in the rooms of recovery, some very harsh things come out of there. And when I first walked in, I was blown away at the level of harshness that was occurring, and I didn't understand it. I didn't really get an idea as to why they were being so, Until later down the road when I realized that that was the most loving thing they could have done to some of these new people.

Their harshness, their crassness wasn't out of non love, [00:25:00] it was out of nothing but love. And they would say things like, you're not done. Go get done. Come back when you're ready. You know what, let's go to the bar. I, I'll buy you a. Because you're not done yet and you need to hurry up and get done. You need to destroy some more lives and destroy some more people before you're ready.

And that is directly from rooms of recovery that I've been a part of and why it sounds terrible. It sounds enabling and it's dramatic. And I've said that on this show before. It is very dramatic, but it is also tactical. Because they know better than anybody else. Nothing fucking said to them was gonna work.

And the only thing would, maybe a chance would get them to listen is the one person in the room buying them a beer [00:26:00] and say, in here, go back out. Go get done. And the sad truth is the second that that door shut behind that person that they told to go get done, they look around the room and say, I hope they come back.

You. Most of them don't walk out the room. Most of them stay because they want to hear what has to be said and then they don't come back and we never see 'em again. And, and that's a lot of the sad truth around a lot of this. But just speaking to that point, that boundary sometimes is, is so scary to even get to or to even say.

And even myself, I've never said it, I've wanted, I've wanted too many a times. I'm too scared too because I feel like I'd get a God complex in that moment. And the God complex is that I'm the reason they drank themselves to death. I'm the reason that they hurt themselves. Taylor, you're not a God. You didn't do that.

They did it. They did it themselves. You don't have that power. You didn't put the drink in their hand. [00:27:00] Yeah, you might have said, Hey, go drink. But they know and you knew that you were saying it out of love. It's hard in those scenarios. I have a control issue. And that goes into balance and that goes into boundaries.

It's almost this weird control dynamic where when you do set a boundary, you feel like if you break it, you are regaining control over the outcome of an uncontrollable, unstoppable situation called addiction. And every time you bend your boundary, you are in a way saying to the universe, no, I'm gonna control this.

Now I'm taking. I'm going to stop this wave of destruction when you can't. And that's what sucks is I can't, 

HOST - ERIC: a lot of deep points there, but, but very good. Very right on the money. And this brings me back to a question for Michelle that I have in terms of that. So when you found yourself adjusting boundaries or even not holding to a [00:28:00] boundary that you said you were going to hold to, how did that 

HOST - TAYLOR: make you feel?

Personally 

GUEST - MICHELLE: like I was 

HOST - TAYLOR: failing the person. 

HOST - ERIC: Interesting. In this discussion, we've talked about the addict feeling sometimes like they're failing because they know in their brain what they're doing. It's not good for them and not good for their relationships, but yet they continue to do it. And then on the other side of it, the family and friends who are trying to adjust and manipulate themselves around this person to help them is also feeling frustration and maybe even failure because they're adjusting these things.

So we come right back to what you brought up in the beginning, Michelle, the idea of communication. It's very important. And the idea of also consistency, you know, staying consistent with the rule, you know, or the, or the boundary and the person, the other person involved. Accepting that and knowing that that boundary boundary's in, in place and [00:29:00] that's the end of it.

And that's so tough. I mean, again, we're talking, we can sit here and intellectualize it and, and all of that. It's hard. It's not 

GUEST - MICHELLE: easy. I think it's easier with the consistency and the structure if it was planted from the beginning with the relationship you're having with the person. You can't expect somebody that never had structure, consistency, or didn't even care about that kind of way of living.

To suddenly have it and then conform to it when they're altered in a sense. But I think if, if you set your expectations from the beginning and they start to go off into the unexpected, it's easier to bring them back because it's been, it's been established. It, it's just really hard. You, you just, communication is just, You have to have it from the beginning, and if you don't have it and you're trying to help somebody, you should seek somebody in your family or friends or somebody that has something, some kind of communication or relationship with that person, cuz the end result is the positive one.

[00:30:00] It's not about who, the power trip of who can do it or who can't do it. It's about who can help the person and, and, and get through to them and, and make the boundaries clear so that they have a chance 

HOST - ERIC: to. Right. But if you're not somebody who's ever gone through addiction, how would you know in the beginning that, hey, we're, we're kind of going down the wrong road here.

We need to really establish early on some really strong boundaries. You don't know, right? You're, you don't, you're kind of playing this day by day, and then before you know it, you're kind of in this place and like, whoa, wait, how'd I get here? 

HOST - TAYLOR: It's true. Yeah. And when it's like late in the game too, when you've already established a relationship with.

And then they start displaying signs or behaviors of something that you weren't even expecting them to potentially even have. You're caught off guard and you're like, oh wait, how do I come back from this? So I get what you're saying. You know, establishing those things from the get-go is a good thing if they already have it.

If they don't, then [00:31:00] it's like you gotta kind of figure it out as things go. And I like to call 'em rules of engagement, you know, but it sounds very, At that point, it's like no longer a relationship, it's this corporation that you're establishing. And it's so hard to transition in a way to that mindset of like, okay, we're gonna have some serious mathematical if this, then that discussions now, because we can't have, how's the weather discussions anymore?

I, I have to be prepared for that. How's the weather discussion to turn to absolute trash in a he. Because of something that just happened last night from some drama, from some addicted substance involved, and now I have to respond to that. You know? So it's very different when you start getting into that style of a relationship.

It's 

GUEST - MICHELLE: true. And what I mean about communication with like having a rapport or consistency or structure in the [00:32:00] beginning, I can relate it to like if you have a brother or a sister or a child, that. Having a problem with boundaries, and you are the one that can talk to them with a clear mind and understanding and respect as opposed to another family member who, who can't, you're not gonna get anywhere with, with any kind of communication with that person.

So if you don't have a structure set up in communication that you shouldn't be the one trying to set a boundary and fix. Yeah, because like Eric said, if you don't know how to do that, you can't do that. But then find somebody, anybody that maybe can talk to that person and try to get through and make them understand what's expected, but that, you know, they can, they can understand the boundary and then hopefully they can go the way they're supposed to go and not the way they're going.

We 

HOST - TAYLOR: always encourage people to talk to like-minded individuals, right, Eric? Right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and, and I always advocate myself as a resource to my family and [00:33:00] friends. And it's so funny how many people will message me who aren't addicts and say, Hey, tey, we know that you're really big into the world of recovery.

Can you talk to my buddy over here? He's struggling a little bit, and that is something that a lot of people who aren't addicts might not know in the world of recovery because there's maybe a couple of reasons, right? Like they just don't know about the world of recovery or. They think of recovery synonymous with maybe some 12 step programs that really think that it's fly under the radar.

Nobody talks to anybody. Everybody's anonymous, ev. It's all a big kept secret. While that is kind of true, a lot of people in those rooms are big, gigantic advocates. They're very loud and proud, and they're very willing to help other. And even if a non-ad walked into any of those rooms and said, Hey, I know somebody who [00:34:00] has an issue, can someone help?

10 of them would stand up in a heartbeat and say, yep, here's my phone number. My name's blah, and nice to meet you. Let's go have some coffee and talk more even to the non-ad

HOST - ERIC: in this whole conversation. We've talked a lot about bringing people into the mix that could help. Michelle, you brought that up as well. The other part of this, this idea of the stigma around addiction. The stigma for not just the addict but the people in the addict's life. You know how that person is being viewed, how maybe you as the friend or family member are being viewed, all of that.

So Michelle, how does that concept of stigma. Come up for you. 

GUEST - MICHELLE: There needs to be more attention to helping them instead of pointing them out. And I've had a few people in my life, addicts, I've never hidden their addiction from anyone. I would be proud of the person that they [00:35:00] are. The addiction component of them is just a part of them.

I would never hide that. I would talk to people about it. I would say, listen, if you see them, you know, let me know. I never hid it. It's like hiding somebody that's sick, like you wouldn't do that. They need help. They need to know somebody's in their side even though they may not want you on their side sometimes.

It's nice always to know that somebody cares and somebody's there for you. And I think that there needs to be much more awareness with all of this, because from my perspective, I feel. You may choose to pick up or go somewhere. People, places things. Right. I don't believe in my heart that people choose to live the way they live.

I, I don't, I think if they could help themselves, they would. I, I just think, I think sometimes they can't and they need more advocacy. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Agree. Yeah. I really, oh my gosh, you kind of blew me away there with the, you do talk. Them to other people and let other people, you blew me away with that. And [00:36:00] what I mean by that is, at first I was like, not like offended, but just like, no, you're supposed to like help keep their secret about how sick they are.

Th this is how you know I'm an addict because that's what we do, is we protect our secret. It's our greatest secret. It is the biggest thing that we want ourselves are willing to lie till the ends of the earth about to ourselves, let alone to everybody else. We are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and we don't want anyone to know, and this is how I know I still have a lot of work to do.

Cuz the first thing I was like, no, no, you're supposed to protect them, right? You're supposed to hide their secret with them. But the first thing you say is no. You talk to other people about it. You let other people know and you bring them into awareness. And it took me about three seconds. There was about a three second buffer there where I was like, wait.

That's amazing. And that's actually what I described might be what some people end up doing to the person who's the addict is they do protect their secret. They do in a way enable them [00:37:00] by saying, oh, I'm not gonna tell anybody that he has a problem with this. Because I don't wanna make it worse, but what you 

GUEST - MICHELLE: as the addict may not understand or realize is that you're protecting and hiding your secret.

But many people are already aware, right? 

HOST - TAYLOR: Yes. Yep. 

HOST - ERIC: Absolutely. It's amazing. One of the things that you hear in recovery now is this idea of burning the ships and the concept of burning ships is we as the addict, being honest and open to people in our lives that, Hey, I have a problem and I'm working on it.

And also recognizing, and I like what you said, Michelle, in there. It's only part of them. It's not all of them. Right. And I think that's such an important point to push home because that is so true. It does not define them as a person. They can still function and many of them do. They're high functioning.

You hear about this all the time, high functioning alcoholics. They go to work every day. They're high achievers. They get everything done. They do all the things they're supposed to do. It looks good on the outside. And in fact, that's how they keep [00:38:00] telling themselves they're okay. Mm-hmm. You know? So that's how they fool themselves.

Like, oh, well I go to work every day. I just got a promotion. I don't have a problem. I'm fine. So what I drink at night, big deal. It's not hurting anybody. Right. So the idea of being open and saying it and bringing it out and, and it's not to like, oh, they're a drug addict or they're an alcoholic. It's more like, that's only part of who they are.

And it, yes, it needs work, but it's the saying, like, I hear it all the time about if you had diabetes, you know, would you hide that from people? No, you would go get help, right? You would go to the doctor and get help. And now the alcoholism and drug abuse and addiction is part of the d s. And is considered a mental health issue.

It's a disease 

HOST - TAYLOR: that 

HOST - ERIC: now allows a lot of that stigma to start to dissipate a bit because now we're looking at it in a different way and we're realizing, hey, this person needs help. They're not a loser. They're not unwilling to do things. They need some help, and that's what we need to do for them. So I applaud [00:39:00] you for being that way.

I think that's the right way 

HOST - TAYLOR: for people to. Thank you 100%. Yeah, I, I look at it as I have some family members that do have type one diabetes and they have to take their insulin. My insulin shot is going to meetings. Mm-hmm. My insulin shot is my recovery work. Well, Taylor, that's not a disease. You are just going to a meeting.

That's the stigma. That's the stigma, and that's sad. I will never say I understand somebody who's dealing with diabetes. No, I am not saying that I'm drawing a linear line in terms of medication and dealing with a mental situation or a physiological situ. And that connection is this, an insulin pump for one, is a meeting to someone like me.

And if I don't take it, and if they don't take it, we both die. Wow. Because I go back out and I destroy my life. Right. Steve? That's a, that's a great point, and it's 

GUEST - MICHELLE: so true. You should be able to [00:40:00] have whatever it is you need to help yourself and that the point that you're willing and able to continue to help yourself is what's the most important thing.

You're, you're doing what you need to do and it should be supported on every level. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Yes, 

HOST - ERIC: absolutely. I, and to add to all of that, you know, first off, we have in the idea of addiction, whether it's alcohol or drugs or whatever it might be, these kill people. And there is proof of that. Lots and lots and lots and lots of proof out there that alcohol especially will kill and destroy your.

And a lot of the different drugs that are out there will do similar things as well. So it's a big deal and it's, it's a hard crisis to go through. But one of the stigmas in it, and this happened to me, a friend called me up, said, Hey, you know, what are you doing tonight? I got, you know, I was seeing if you want to hang out for a bit or whatever, like, and I said, no, you know, I'm going to a meeting and the first thing out of their mouth, Oh, well, wait, are are you wanting a drink?

Are, are you okay? And it was more of, because I [00:41:00] was going to a meeting that automatically meant there must be some sort of problem that's going on. And that stigma, that idea that in my mind where, oh, I gotta be careful of saying to somebody, I'm going to a meeting because they're gonna take it the wrong way.

In my head, I'm adjust. Right. I'm adjusting a boundary of, I can't tell them that part of my life. I've gotta leave that 

HOST - TAYLOR: alone. So it's crazy. I'm laughing right now, Eric, because in my mind I'm a shithead and my response would be like, yeah, dude, I'm about to relapse. I'm like, just to fucking, well, I'll stop him 

HOST - ERIC: right there.

HOST - TAYLOR: I like blowing up stigmas and I also like causing a little bit of chaos every once in a. Don't we 

HOST - ERIC: all,

we talk a lot about tools and certainly tools from the perspective of of being. You know, addicted and what do I do if I feel a urge or whatever, but [00:42:00] we've never really talked about tools of people that live with the addict or live around the addict. What kind of tools do you use to help you kind of calm down or, or de-stress from a situation that you might be involved with in regards to ad addiction?

GUEST - MICHELLE: I keep communication open with my family and the friends. The person may affect, we try to talk about different ways that we can help. We try to talk about, you know, people say, oh, go, there's a, there's a, a group for people, like for me, yeah. Al-Anon. And I just feel like sometimes it's, it's not for me. Like I, when it comes down to it, I'm the one that's gotta deal with the person.

So I have to figure it out. So I will brainstorm with family. I will talk to people like someone like you, Eric, a friend that I can trust and maybe has experience. The same kind of situation. I think [00:43:00] it's important to educate yourself, read, understand, like you were saying, you're afraid, you know, you tell a friend, you're gonna go to a meeting, and right away they think the negative, like ignorance.

There needs to be more education on all of this. And I educate myself because. When it comes down to it, I'm the person that's gonna be called. I'm the person that's gotta go in the car and find the person. I'm the person that has to deal with it. I'm the person that has to live with it. So I have to figure out how to, how to fix it on my own.

So my tools are, I pray. Mm-hmm. I reach out to people, like I said, that can help me. That understand. I won't waste my time talking to people that judge or I. And communication with my family because I don't want the people around me to feel like they're less important than the person that's taking off my attention, because that happens too.

So I think if you have communica, the key is communication all around. You just have to be on the same page with the people you're trying to help. And if those people are not with you to help that person, then, then you need to find people that will [00:44:00] support you and help that person. That's how I, that those.

Because in the end it's up to me to help the person in my family or my close friend, cuz a lot of times they burn the bridge and there's nobody left. It seems to fall on me sometimes and it's, it's hard. I keep myself, um, strong and focused on helping them, not resenting them. Right. 

HOST - TAYLOR: I've gained empathy for the ones that deal with us and they took on the world of my bullshit and it's not fair to them at.

I think it's important that they take the. To get the support from the people that they need to hear from and talk to. And that's kind of what, like places like Al-Anon are there for. I've never been to one myself. I know that my family members have gone for the sake of other family members and they were there for a while.

But those places are weirdly enough from what I've. The same as the rooms of [00:45:00] 12 step programs, but doing the exact same thing because it's all mental health. The person that has to deal with us still has to be able to handle. Their own stuff. And in the words of my mom, we're all shoveling something.

Right. And, and I'm not saying it has to be Alan on, it's an amazing resource. And having individuals and not bottling it up, get it out, have someone to talk to Exactly. Really engage in those conversations and don't try and hold it back. So to be there and to know that, you know it's okay to have other people to go to and talk to about us, that's so healthy and so good.

And I really, I really like that you're taking the time to hone in and focus on that stuff and, and have your support group, have your, your brain trust. You know, like Eric is like your brain trust, the people that you can go to and, and that's just, there's something to be said about. 

HOST - ERIC: Right. I agree. I think building community, whether community is people around you that you [00:46:00] trust, or whether communities to go to some sort of a 12 step program, whether it be Al-Anon, aa, whatever it might be, those are ways to help you gain that support that you need.

So I love the fact that you build community, you reach out to the people around you. You know, can help you and you're gonna know better than anybody else. Right? Okay. Who are the people I trust with this? Who are the people that are gonna have my back? Right? And even if it's the one person, that one person can be such 

HOST - TAYLOR: a 

GUEST - MICHELLE: rock.

That's very true. Sometimes it's one person that says the right thing that you need to hear at that time, and then you know which way to go. Because as much of a struggle it is for us on this side, the addict is always worth. Always worth it.

HOST - TAYLOR: Well, wow, this has been an amazing episode, and as promised from the end of last episode [00:47:00] where we had those two questions asked, we are going to ask the same and start it off with the first question of what motivates you to set. 

GUEST - MICHELLE: The care and concern of my loved one that's out there struggling. When you set boundaries, you show that you care about them.

You care about where they are, what they're doing. You try to make some kind of accountability cuz they see that somebody cares about them, somebody's worried about them, somebody cares what they're doing or what they're not doing. That's a good motivator for me. 

HOST - TAYLOR: I think it is a unique form of showing love.

I don't, I don't know. Addict sees it that way because they're such in a fog. But it doesn't make it not true. It's, it's once you come out of that fog, you start to realize why they were doing what they were doing and how many times they said, I love you without saying the words, I love you. They say, I love you.

[00:48:00] Bye setting these boundaries by doing these things, and that's just so powerful and thank you for that. The second question is, do you find it hard and difficult to set boundaries? In general or relating to the attic? 

GUEST - MICHELLE: Yes. I think setting boundaries is hard all around because there's always gonna be pushback when you set a boundary, right?

Yep. Absolutely. Friction. And again, boundaries are set for an ultimate positive outcome. It's just that you both have to realize it, and sometimes it's a one-sided understanding, but when you set boundaries and you set rules, it sh, it does show Taylor her that you love the person and you care about the person and they're worth it and they matter, and you want them to live the life they deserve to live, and you have to help them get.

One little tiny step at a time. And if setting a boundary is the first step and there's a little pushback, just stay on your track. Just stay [00:49:00] straight on your track because the ultimate goal is to help the person succeed and live a great life. 

HOST - TAYLOR: Wow. 

HOST - ERIC: We, we, you said that together. I, it wasn't like we timed it, but it worked out.

Wow. Wow. Very Wow. Yes. And the hope is that the, Picks up on that at some point in the process? Well, it's 

GUEST - MICHELLE: okay to remind them as they're pushing back. It's always good to remind them they're doing this because you care and you love them, and no, they may not hear you every time, but they hear you sometimes and that's, they just have to hear you once.

HOST - ERIC: They just have to hear you once. 

HOST - TAYLOR: I love that there are weird and odd moments of clarity through the fog that I remember somebody saying something. It didn't look like it got through to me, but it did a couple years later. So what was said then did ultimately matter, and time is relative because it worked.

That's 

HOST - ERIC: awesome. And patience is a big 

HOST - TAYLOR: part of all of that. This has been amazing. I've [00:50:00] really enjoyed this conversation. I really did an amazing 

HOST - ERIC: episode. Thank you so much, 

GUEST - MICHELLE: Michelle. Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it very much too. Thank you so much. I love your, your podcast. I love what you're doing for people. I commend you both.

It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. 

HOST - ERIC: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. We appreciate that. Yeah. So, Taylor, what do we wanna tell our listeners? Don't do drugs. Okay. Yeah. Don't do drugs and, and, and realize and realize boundaries are out of love. Don't do. Hey, thank you all for listening to the show. We 

HOST - TAYLOR: really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for joining us today, and we would not be here without you. 

HOST - ERIC: New episodes, air every Friday morning. This show is available wherever you podcast. 

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HOST - TAYLOR: it. Coming in regular, coming in hot.[00:52:00] [00:53:00]